[Updated] Model 3 CCS / CHAdeMO adapter

[juliusa]

I hate to be a party pooper but if you can’t charge at home, not even at 110v and EV is not for you.

Without a charging solution at home or at work, an EV just does not make sense.

Not for YOU. Others have decided it IS for THEM.

 

[juliusa]

There's no way in you-know-where that one can justify blocking thirty parking places per building as EV charging only. There are practical concerns that go beyond the electrical infrastructure as the number of EVs gets large.

If there are 100 EVs, there should be 100 spaces. Why not have enough parking for all employees? And enough charging for all employees that have EVs?

What are the practical conerns? We better get them addressed before 2030 when all cars are EVs.

 

[juliusa]

The only time L2 charging is cheaper is when your existing building transformer can accommodate the extra load of the number of L2 chargers that you want to add.

I don't see how there is a difference in cost between L3 or L2 power infrastructure. If you need to provide 2000kWh over 8 hours, it does not matter if it is via L3 or L2 chargers.

I was not aware there was an additional transformer cost to provide 120/208 volt wye service rather than 277/480 volt service - most commercial buildings here have 120/208 service. Large campuses with large parking lots probably do have 277/480 service. But my suggestion is put the L2 chargers on 277v as described in my Wall Connector manual.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

There's no way in you-know-where that one can justify blocking thirty parking places per building as EV charging only. There are practical concerns that go beyond the electrical infrastructure as the number of EVs gets large.



I'm not sure why you think that, but that isn't consistent with the numbers I've seen.

The only time L2 charging is cheaper is when your existing building transformer can accommodate the extra load of the number of L2 chargers that you want to add. That's often fine for a single-digit number of chargers per building. But if you want to cover everybody who wants EV charging at a typical tech company, you'll need more like 20 per building right now, and within a couple of years, that could easily grow to 50 per building, exceeding a couple of hundred per building within ten years.

To service 50 chargers per building, you have to install a new building transformer with at least 1500 additional amps of 240V service. So you're guaranteed to have 480V three-phase power available at that point, making DC fast charging easy, and most of your costs will actually come from installing the power service, which is cheaper for L3 charging because you don't have to add step-down transformers for 240V service. And your next biggest cost is labor, which is also a lot cheaper if you're wiring one sixth as many stations.

Yes, the equipment costs 10x and only gives you 6–8x as much power, but with L2 charging, most or all your chargers go idle halfway through the afternoon because nobody cares about charging for only a couple of hours, and when you factor that in, the equipment costs end up being comparable as well.

So basically, the cost of one L3 charger is comparable to the cost of an equivalent amount of L2 charging (6–8 chargers) as soon as you actually start talking about an installation on the sort of scale where L3 charging would make sense, and may actually be cheaper. Obviously, you should always have some L2 charging, because not all cars support L3 charging, but I think we're at the point where most workplaces, at least in the Bay Area, already have as much L2 capacity as they can handle without major service upgrades. As soon as you're talking about a service upgrade anyway, IMO, you'd be crazy to add more L2 capacity rather than adding L3 capacity with a similar power budget, because in terms of bang-for-the-buck, it ends up being much more efficient in every way.

Hmmm. I don’t know. A single parking stall can be serviced with a single 20 amp 240 service. And really even that’s probably a stretch on requirements. If the EVSE is to be supplied by the supplier simply limit them to 12 amps at 240 each. And if that’s too hard just put a single 120 volt 20 amp breakered outlet at each parking spot. 8 hours of 120 charging would be adequate for the majority of commuters. Maybe have 10 percent of them 240 volts for those who commute a little further.

The problem is not near as big as people think.

Jmho.

 

[Goodtohave]

A few cities near me have made a Nema 14-50 code in any new construction home garage. Many condo developments are doing the same.

One municipality is even installing J1772 in all new construction, Great idea, even a person without an EV will think about it for their next car.

It’s really not a big deal in new construction. As someone mentioned 20-40 amps is fine for overnight, doesn’t have to be 100 to future proof.

Sorry to keep off topic

 

[yuhong]

I don't see how there is a difference in cost between L3 or L2 power infrastructure. If you need to provide 2000kWh over 8 hours, it does not matter if it is via L3 or L2 chargers.

I was not aware there was an additional transformer cost to provide 120/208 volt wye service rather than 277/480 volt service - most commercial buildings here have 120/208 service. Large campuses with large parking lots probably do have 277/480 service. But my suggestion is put the L2 chargers on 277v as described in my Wall Connector manual.

View attachment 391008

What is fun is in Canada where 347/600 is standard and most DCFC chargers including Tesla's use 277/480. Of course, I don't know exactly what power feed KSI was using in Ontario. I imagine that the cost of a three phase 600 to 208 and 600 to 480 transformers are similar, right?

 

[Big Earl]

Without a charging solution at home or at work, an EV just does not make sense.

I have a friend and an acquaintance in the DC area who do not have home charging - one has a Fiat 500e and the other has a Tesla Model 3. They make it work just fine, thoroughly enjoy their EVs and are fossil fuel free without a major impact to their schedules. Sure, it takes a bit more work, but they feel that it’s worth it.

 

[Argoniii]

I have a client that uses his kia soul ev for his painting business and has no home charger. Almost 3 years running and he is doing OK. That said he can use the chargers I will not be able to use here in Vancouver heh.

 

[MP3Mike]

There's no way in you-know-where that one can justify blocking thirty parking places per building as EV charging only. There are practical concerns that go beyond the electrical infrastructure as the number of EVs gets large.

Got it, there is no parking available. So these cars using the L3 charger have nowhere to park when they are done and they have to be driven home and the driver takes public transportation back to work.

if you have 50 people driving EVs that need charging per day, and they are provided parking anyhow, there is nothing wrong with dedicating 50 stalls for EV charging...

So basically, the cost of one L3 charger is comparable to the cost of an equivalent amount of L2 charging (6–8 chargers) as soon as you actually start talking about an installation on the sort of scale where L3 charging would make sense, and may actually be cheaper.

The problem with your source of cost is that they are assuming one spot being energized, there are significant cost savings for doing a lot at the same time.

Let's say you have 30 people driving EVs to work and that they all need to charge ~37.5kWhs every day and that they can get the full 50kW from a normal L3 charger the whole time. That means over the course of a staggered 10-hour work day you could handle 10 cars per hour per charger. That is assuming that a car is moved within 7 minute of it's 45 minute charge completing and that the next person hooked their car up within the next 7 minutes. (That is never going to happen unless you have a valet handling all of the charging.) So you need 150kW of electrical service and 3 L3 chargers. The Level 3 charges are likely to cost you $150k just for the L3 chargers. You can buy, and install, a lot of L2 EVSEs for that.

Now let's look at what you need to put 30 L2 EVSEs in to accomplish the same thing with the assumption that everyone is parked for at least 8 hours. Assuming that every car can charge at 208v40A (8.3kW) each car needs ~4.5 hours to charge so you would only need ~120kW of electrical service. Which would cut your demand costs significantly. And in reality not everyone is going to need 37.5kWhs every day. And you gain employee productivity because you don't have to have 30 people spending at least a half hour every day moving their car.

PowerFlex has an adaptive system and have shown that they can reduce peak usage 34% on a large install. (So instead of the ~120kW service you would only need ~80kW.) But it is even better than that as they can use excess capacity from your existing building service so you don't have to get as big of an additional service installed. (It would be great if PowerFlex had some whitepapers available to show how you can save using their large system over a traditional L2/L3 install. What do you think @MITE46 do you have any numbers you can share?)

 

[dgatwood]

If there are 100 EVs, there should be 100 spaces. Why not have enough parking for all employees? And enough charging for all employees that have EVs?

What are the practical conerns? We better get them addressed before 2030 when all cars are EVs.

If you reserve spots for EVs, then non-EV cars can't park in them, and if you don't, then EVs won't be able to park in them. When your parking lots are at or near capacity every day and the city government won't let you increase the number of parking spaces, reserving parking causes headaches, and the more you reserve, the bigger the headaches.

The only time L2 charging is cheaper is when your existing building transformer can accommodate the extra load of the number of L2 chargers that you want to add.

I don't see how there is a difference in cost between L3 or L2 power infrastructure. If you need to provide 2000kWh over 8 hours, it does not matter if it is via L3 or L2 chargers.

I think you missed the point of that bit, which was that most people who say that L3 is much more expensive than L2 are comparing apples and oranges. They look at L2 chargers as not requiring new electrical service because they assume you already have a building transformer and breaker box, and it usually isn't at 100% of its capacity. But then, they base the cost of L3 charging on having to provide electrical service to the location.

Hmmm. I don’t know. A single parking stall can be serviced with a single 20 amp 240 service. And really even that’s probably a stretch on requirements. If the EVSE is to be supplied by the supplier simply limit them to 12 amps at 240 each. And if that’s too hard just put a single 120 volt 20 amp breakered outlet at each parking spot. 8 hours of 120 charging would be adequate for the majority of commuters. Maybe have 10 percent of them 240 volts for those who commute a little further.

The first one is always easy. But the cost of adding fifty transformers for 50 stalls is prohibitive, which is why nobody just adds service individually per stall. Also, I can't imagine the average person being able to get by on 20A service at 110V. You would only get about twenty miles of range per eight-hour workday after subtracting ten miles for vampire drain. The general consensus seems to be that 110V service isn't even worth pulling out the mobile charger to use unless you're desperate.

Now let's look at what you need to put 30 L2 EVSEs in to accomplish the same thing with the assumption that everyone is parked for at least 8 hours. Assuming that every car can charge at 208v40A (8.3kW) each car needs ~4.5 hours to charge so you would only need ~120kW of electrical service. Which would cut your demand costs significantly. And in reality not everyone is going to need 37.5kWhs every day. And you gain employee productivity because you don't have to have 30 people spending at least a half hour every day moving their car.

This is what valet service is for. Half our buildings have it anyway, because there isn't enough parking.

 

[wws]

... you have 50 people driving EVs that need charging per day, and they are provided parking anyhow, there is nothing wrong with dedicating 50 stalls for EV charging...

In places where it snows a lot and gets very cold, it is common to see parking lots with 120v receptacles installed at every spot for engine block heaters. When I was visiting Fairbanks, Alaska a few years ago, I noticed that almost all of them were 20 amp receptacles too. It seems like it would be all that is needed to handle large numbers of employee cars regardless of climate. Cheap for a company to install because no fancy EVSE is required, and adequate for quite a bit of charging over an eight hour workday.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

If you reserve spots for EVs, then non-EV cars can't park in them, and if you don't, then EVs won't be able to park in them. When your parking lots are at or near capacity every day and the city government won't let you increase the number of parking spaces, reserving parking causes headaches, and the more you reserve, the bigger the headaches.




I think you missed the point of that bit, which was that most people who say that L3 is much more expensive than L2 are comparing apples and oranges. They look at L2 chargers as not requiring new electrical service because they assume you already have a building transformer and breaker box, and it usually isn't at 100% of its capacity. But then, they base the cost of L3 charging on having to provide electrical service to the location.




The first one is always easy. But the cost of adding fifty transformers for 50 stalls is prohibitive, which is why nobody just adds service individually per stall. Also, I can't imagine the average person being able to get by on 20A service at 110V. You would only get about twenty miles of range per eight-hour workday after subtracting ten miles for vampire drain. The general consensus seems to be that 110V service isn't even worth pulling out the mobile charger to use unless you're desperate.

Nope. One of our vehicles always has to be charged by 120 volts as we only have one Juicebox on 240 volts at 50 amps. No problem with a 25 mile commute on a 120 volts at 12 amps in an 8 hour charge. 240 volts at 12 amps would be overkill for most commutes.

 

[dgatwood]

Nope. One of our vehicles always has to be charged by 120 volts as we only have one Juicebox on 240 volts at 50 amps. No problem with a 25 mile commute on a 120 volts at 12 amps in an 8 hour charge.. 240 volts at 12 amps would be overkill for most commutes.

That's probably true, but it would only work if you could afford to electrify nearly every space so that nobody ever has to share a charging station. Otherwise, it falls apart. And I don't think that's very realistic, because installation costs tend to be more proportional to the number of stalls than the amount of power.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

That's probably true, but it would only work if you could afford to electrify nearly every space so that nobody ever has to share a charging station. Otherwise, it falls apart. And I don't think that's very realistic, because installation costs tend to be more proportional to the number of stalls than the amount of power.

I think I see what you are getting at and its valid. But remember, most will be able to charge at home. Those who can't would be better directed to the lesser percentage of 240 volt receptacles. Again, I don't see the need for employers to supply EVSE's Every EV comes with one. User responsibility.

 

[dgatwood]

I think I see what you are getting at and its valid. But remember, most will be able to charge at home. Those who can't would be better directed to the lesser percentage of 240 volt receptacles. Again, I don't see the need for employers to supply EVSE's Every EV comes with one. User responsibility.

In theory, that would work. In practice, though, most companies don't really want random neighborhood residents using those outlets to air condition their RVs or charge their cars at night. The benefit of an actual, company-owned EVSE over an outlet is that you can trivially limit charging to actual employees, and you can charge contractors the going rate for their power consumption to avoid tax issues. You can't do any of those things with an outlet practically.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

In theory, that would work. In practice, though, most companies don't really want random neighborhood residents using those outlets to air condition their RVs or charge their cars at night. The benefit of an actual, company-owned EVSE over an outlet is that you can trivially limit charging to actual employees, and you can charge contractors the going rate for their power consumption to avoid tax issues. You can't do any of those things with an outlet practically.

Very true. You would have to have some sort of parking lot control I suppose. Or as you say, low cost 3,3 kw EVSE's keycard controlled etc.

i think society will evolve into it. We are small 30 person company but probably a third are planning on getting one. The other 2/3 drive trucks sooooo... Small Canadian town. Its a thing.

 

[EVDRVN]

That's probably true, but it would only work if you could afford to electrify nearly every space so that nobody ever has to share a charging station. Otherwise, it falls apart. And I don't think that's very realistic, because installation costs tend to be more proportional to the number of stalls than the amount of power.

There are many factors at a business that impact cost, EVSE maintenance, demand charges, time of use charges, wire runs, etc. L2 charging is good for long-term parking and higher saturation. L3 charging is not a good solution because of the obvious factors.

 

[dgatwood]

There are many factors at a business that impact cost, EVSE maintenance, demand charges, time of use charges, wire runs, etc. L2 charging is good for long-term parking and higher saturation. L3 charging is not a good solution because of the obvious factors.

Like?

Lots of businesses around here are using a mix of L2 and L3, and it seems to work pretty well for them, at least for non-Tesla users.

 

[EVDRVN]

Like?

Lots of businesses around here are using a mix of L2 and L3, and it seems to work pretty well for them, at least for non-Tesla users.

Do you have a break out fo how many users, cost for they system including demand charges, etc. Any business can throw money at charging like Google does. I got them to add a bunch of L2 units in 5 days just for an event. My point is based on comparative cost and servicing many users for similar models. L3 charging is not effective for many reasons including cost and usage patterns. Companies like Charge Point and others have fully modeled this and have extensive data on what is effective. No big surprises here unless you get free power.

 

[Goodtohave]

This thread is so far off track I don’t know if it will make it back.....

I am part of the problem as I got sucked into it!