Upgrade to Tesla vision and lose radar????

[T.R.T.e.s.l.a.]

I currently have two MX's.
A 100D with FSD (which is for sale, btw) and a Raven Long Range with basic AP.

Both are still in 2022.20.8 and i now have to decide if i should upgrade the fw and get to Tesla Vision only and lose radar or if i should skip the "upgrades" and keep radar.
I'm in Europe btw, so no beta FSD or whatever....

Would like to hear your thoughts and opinions on this.
Thank you

 

[father_of_6]

I have a Model 3 and just got the update notice as well. I don't want to lose radar, and don't trust the cameras and/or vision only. Just this morning one of my cameras was blocked by condensation (which happens *all the time* this time of year).

Also, yesterday the car applied a fairly noticeable steering correction (unnecessarily) accompanied by a chime I didn't recognize and no on-screen notice. It's concerning to me already that the car can just take over my steering at any time, especially given Tesla's record of "move fast and break things". Moreso if getting rid of radar.

I've never experienced phantom braking in my car and don't intend to start experiencing it now.

 

[pereiks]

So from which version does tesla switch to vision only? I've got lots of phantom braking due to oncoming cars, wonder if that is why. I'm on 2022.24.6 MX Raven.

 

[T.R.T.e.s.l.a.]

With 2022.24.6 you should have been "upgraded" do Tesla vision.
Is that phantom braking due to oncoming cars, recent? After 2022.24.6 was installed?

I almost never have phantom braking.

 

[Tam]

I currently have two MX's.
A 100D with FSD (which is for sale, btw) and a Raven Long Range with basic AP.

Both are still in 2022.20.8 and i now have to decide if i should upgrade the fw and get to Tesla Vision only and lose radar or if i should skip the "upgrades" and keep radar.
I'm in Europe btw, so no beta FSD or whatever....

Would like to hear your thoughts and opinions on this.
Thank you

My 2 cars used to use radars.

I "upgraded" 1 to Radarless and it is not better, it's worse with existing features.

I still have 1 with radar and I am not switching to Radarless if I can avoid it.

To me, the only reason to switch to Radarless is to satisfy the curiosity of trying a new experiment.

 

[pereiks]

Can't say that recent, but it appeared in the last few months. Usually the trigget is the oncoming car on the two lane road with the right turn

 

[father_of_6]

Can't say that recent, but it appeared in the last few months. Usually the trigget is the oncoming car on the two lane road with the right turn

Is that while using autopilot? Or driving manually?

 

[T.R.T.e.s.l.a.]

My 2 cars used to use radars.

I "upgraded" 1 to Radarless and it is not better, it's worse with existing features.

I still have 1 with radar and I am not switching to Radarless if I can avoid it.

To me, the only reason to switch to Radarless is to satisfy the curiosity of trying a new experiment.

Which one did you "upgraded"?

Yeah, that's my fear.
My cars are (generally) fine and i fear that losing radar will make them worse at least for some time. (until Tesla eventually improves Tesla Vision)
That and losing following distance position 1 (which i usually feel is too long...)

 

[father_of_6]

until Tesla eventually improves Tesla Vision

That's a big assumption. My opinion is that this will never materialize.

 

[Tam]

Which one did you "upgraded"?

Yeah, that's my fear.
My cars are (generally) fine and i fear that losing radar will make them worse at least for some time. (until Tesla eventually improves Tesla Vision)
That and losing following distance position 1 (which i usually feel is too long...)

That unlucky car is 2018 Model 3. Immediately after upgraded, there have been much more false slowdowns (phantom brakes) and other bugs but maybe because it's FSD beta.

I haven’t switched my 2017 Model X to Radarless yet. I will cancel the upgrade invitation until Tesla Center will force me to take it. There are times that the Autosteer quits due to vision problems such as heavy rain, fog, sun glare, headlights off...I could just override the steering and the TACC still works fine.

 

[DCGOO]

That unlucky car is 2018 Model 3. Immediately after upgraded, there have been much more false slowdowns (phantom brakes) and other bugs but maybe because it's FSD beta.

I haven’t switched my 2017 Model X to Radarless yet. I will cancel the upgrade invitation until Tesla Center will force me to take it. There are times that the Autosteer quits due to vision problems such as heavy rain, fog, sun glare, headlights off...I could just override the steering and the TACC still works fine.

The newer software that you are declining to install may completely fix the phantom braking (I haven't had the problem in ages).

Also, don't forget that some of the things most of us do not want to hit, like pedestrians, children on bicycles, and animals for example, are completely invisible to radar. Radar also can not really tell the difference between a car, truck, or a bridge. It simply ignores the bridge because it is not going as fast (hopefully) as the truck.

True, regarding deteriorating weather. But when it gets bad enough for Vision to shut down, perhaps you should consider doing the same. At least reduce speed enough to safely navigate yourself.

I've found Vision to be far better than radar in nearly all circumstances. The one exception is poor weather as you mentioned. OTOH, that is not really all bad, considering safety at the top of the list.

 

[Tam]

The newer software that you are declining to install may completely fix the phantom braking (I haven't had the problem in ages).

Maybe. Notice that not everyone gets the same bug. Some have no problem at all others do.

Some have crooked panel gaps, some don't...

Some driving their Tesla with eyes closed, others experienced fatalities.

It's fine that bad things don't happen to an owner, but when bugs including fatalities happen, I want to know why.

Also, don't forget that some of the things most of us do not want to hit, like pedestrians, children on bicycles, and animals for example, are completely invisible to radar.

Notice that, before radar was deleted, there has always been a camera. So keeping radar doesn't mean we have to take down the cameras.

Radar also can not really tell the difference between a car, truck, or a bridge. It simply ignores the bridge because it is not going as fast (hopefully) as the truck.

True. That's the weakness of conventional radar. That's why companies are switching to 4D radar.

Conventional radar has problems with stationary obstacles like the ones being investigated by NHTSA with parking first responder vehicles. However, it is very good with obstacles moving in the same direction as your car.

I've found Vision to be far better than radar in nearly all circumstances. The one exception is poor weather as you mentioned. OTOH, that is not really all bad, considering safety at the top of the list.

Two fatal motorcycle accidents in just 17 days apart in July in 2 different states CA and UT on the pure vision at night on empty highways.

Remember, conventional radar is quite bad with stationary obstacles but with moving obstacles traveling in the same direction as in these two motorcycles, the radar is very good!

 

[jboy210]

...

True. That's the weakness of conventional radar. That's why companies are switching to 4D radar.

Thanks for the link. I had never heard of 4 D radar. Hopefully it works as well as the CEO of the company says.

 

[DCGOO]

Thanks for the link. I had never heard of 4 D radar. Hopefully it works as well as the CEO of the company says.

That may be what Elon was referring to when. he was discussing high res radar as a future possibility. But even that article suggests it is combined with cameras.

 

[Tam]

Thanks for the link. I had never heard of 4 D radar. Hopefully it works as well as the CEO of the company says.

Waymo has been using 4D radar since 2 years ago. It's called "imaging radar."

Aurora also uses 4D radar called "imaging radar."

AutoX is using Arbe's brand of 4D radar.

MobilEye has been using 4D radar called "Software-Defined Digital Imaging Radar."

4D radar is still a radar so although it is more expensive than conventional radar, it's dirt cheap when compared to LIDAR.

 

[Tam]

That may be what Elon was referring to when. he was discussing high res radar as a future possibility. But even that article suggests it is combined with cameras.

Here's the tweet from 6 years ago hinting that radar can be like LIDAR after the first documented fatal Autopilot accident:

https://twitter.com/x/status/753785936257835008

The picture below is from the camera on top, LIDAR on the left, 4D radar on the right:

The picture below is not from a camera. It's the rendition coming from MobilEye 4D radar:

 

[T.R.T.e.s.l.a.]

That's a big assumption. My opinion is that this will never materialize.

Agreed. That's why i said eventually....

 

[jboy210]

The picture below is not from a camera. It's the rendition coming from MobilEye 4D radar:

Why is the image false colored in the 4D system? Is there some advantage to this? Or is this a marketing image?

 

[Tam]

Why is the image false colored in the 4D system? Is there some advantage to this? Or is this a marketing image?

4D radar does not see pictures. It has no picture, so it is definitely color-blind. It's not only color blind, it's blind because it does not see lights. Because it is blind so it has no problem with sun glares, and it works perfectly with sun glares. It sends out radio waves and receives the bounced-back waves so it can do measurements. It sees cloud points just like LIDAR does. 4D radar is the next generation and is advanced, but it is still a radar, not LIDAR, not cameras.

However, you can feed its data to a neuro network, and it can translate the info into understandable and workable LIDAR and Camera formats including colors.

 

[verygreen]

Also, don't forget that some of the things most of us do not want to hit, like pedestrians, children on bicycles, and animals for example, are completely invisible to radar

This is not true:

Radar also can not really tell the difference between a car, truck, or a bridge

This is also not true. Radar Tesla uses has all sorts of additional info per point of what the radar thinks the object the point belongs to is. IT recognizes cars, trucks, guardrail, pedestrians, motorcycles, tunnels and more.

It simply ignores the bridge because it is not going as fast (hopefully) as the truck.

This is most definitely not true. What's happening is that Tesla software ignores certain data radar feeds it. Or incorrectly attributes radar returns to vision detections (bad sensor fusion). While you can argue that still makes radar less helpful, it was Tesla decision to stop trying to make the fusion better.
Either way according to Tesla themselves radar use is safer - we know this because they allow higher speed and smaller following distance with radar enabled. This is even ignoring operations in limited visibility cases.