Using CCS chargers

[miimura]

I'm aware that other parts of the world use other charging systems. In a lot of three phase countries like Europe and Australia, Tesla is using a modified Type 2 connector for both AC and Supercharging.

I'm still awaiting any sort of evidence that Tesla is even considering changing their charge ports. If it's all but certain they will do that, surely there should be some concrete evidence or statements from Tesla, yes?

There is no reason for Tesla to make any statements about charging systems for vehicles that are not yet released.

Aside from Tesla's CharIN membership, there is no evidence to support it, but I personally believe that that the soon to be released European Model 3 will have a CCS2 inlet that will support existing European Superchargers and CCS Type-2 chargers. When RHD is released for the UK it will have the same inlet, which should make it obvious that Australian Model 3's will be the same. It will take a design refresh for the S & X to be updated to be the same. There is simply no room in the existing charging socket area for a CCS2 inlet.

 

[Murbs]

I'm aware that other parts of the world use other charging systems. In a lot of three phase countries like Europe and Australia, Tesla is using a modified Type 2 connector for both AC and Supercharging.

I'm still awaiting any sort of evidence that Tesla is even considering changing their charge ports. If it's all but certain they will do that, surely there should be some concrete evidence or statements from Tesla, yes?

How about this written evidence from Tesla I have already posted???
https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=a2947a0e-1fb4-46bd-bc26-fb00b1c6055f&subId=658548

 

[wdolson]

There is no reason for Tesla to make any statements about charging systems for vehicles that are not yet released.

Aside from Tesla's CharIN membership, there is no evidence to support it, but I personally believe that that the soon to be released European Model 3 will have a CCS2 inlet that will support existing European Superchargers and CCS Type-2 chargers. When RHD is released for the UK it will have the same inlet, which should make it obvious that Australian Model 3's will be the same. It will take a design refresh for the S & X to be updated to be the same. There is simply no room in the existing charging socket area for a CCS2 inlet.

The Model S and X in China has a dual socket now:
Tesla updates Model S/X charge port to support China's charging standard

If they wanted to be more aesthetic they could put one charger type on one side of the car and the other on the other side. The charge port for the Model 3 is also larger than the Model S/X and they may have been thinking about different charging ports with that design.

 

[miimura]

The China charge port design was clearly a capitulation to regulations without regard for Tesla's typical attention to aesthetics. The Model 3 charge port area is clearly a reflection of the need for more area to support different charge port requirements around the world.

 

[Zoltrix77]

The China charge port design was clearly a capitulation to regulations without regard for Tesla's typical attention to aesthetics. The Model 3 charge port area is clearly a reflection of the need for more area to support different charge port requirements around the world.

Sure, but if Telsla is moving to CCS2 in Europe with the Model 3, its rather odd that they have not added CCS2 via the "China Solution" in European/Australian/New Zealand Model S and X vehicles already.

If they are to release CCS2 on the Model 3, current S and X owners who bought their cars in the last couple of years must surely be annoyed that they won't have the ability to charge at CCS stations.

 

[Candleflame]

Sure, but if Telsla is moving to CCS2 in Europe with the Model 3, its rather odd that they have not added CCS2 via the "China Solution" in European/Australian/New Zealand Model S and X vehicles already.

If they are to release CCS2 on the Model 3, current S and X owners who bought their cars in the last couple of years must surely be annoyed that they won't have the ability to charge at CCS stations.

when model s was designed there was no standard, hence the USA novel plug. In Europe they used the modded type 2 plug but the existing hardware does not actually accomodate any new charging standard. no point adding CSS with the last facelift for the model S as the superchargers arent compatible with the CSS plug (yet)

 

[rohan_aus]

when model s was designed there was no standard, hence the USA novel plug. In Europe they used the modded type 2 plug but the existing hardware does not actually accomodate any new charging standard. no point adding CSS with the last facelift for the model S as the superchargers arent compatible with the CSS plug (yet)

I don't see why the current superchargers couldn't work with a CCS2 connector, considering the top half is a Type 2 connector. Tesla could have some active switching internally to switch the DC feed between the Type 2 pins when connected to a supercharger and the two CCS2 DC pins when using a CCS2 charger. As there's comms between the car and both charger types, the car would know what it's connected to and switch the DC between pins as required.

 

[Candleflame]

probably because it adds complexity to the system. they probably will have to do something like that eventually because adding another CSS style hose to the superchargers isnt really feasable imho.

 

[alexeiw123]

I'm still awaiting any sort of evidence that Tesla is even considering changing their charge ports. If it's all but certain they will do that, surely there should be some concrete evidence or statements from Tesla, yes?

A little evidence and a lot of reason.

1) The size of the model 3 charge door - why make it bigger than their existing sockets?
2) They have precedent: Tesla unveils a brand new dual charging port for the Chinese market
3) As Murbs posted, why would they recommend a Gov mandated plug type they can't use?: https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=a2947a0e-1fb4-46bd-bc26-fb00b1c6055f&subId=658548
4) It's logical to do so - the CCS2 port can be made to still accept a supercharger plug. There's a lot to gain and nothing to lose.

 

[Ben D]

Yes, they have done it - CCS port for model 3's, probably because there was a lot to gain and nothing to lose.....
Tesla Australia Will Add CCS Chargers To Support Model 3

 

[Shock-On-T]

There's still something confusing me:
Isn't the CCS2 port basically a Type 2 at the top, with 2 extra pins below?
In other words, can't you already plug a Type 2 plug into a CCS2 port?

If so, why couldn't CCS2 M3 cars be able to use existing Superchargers, which use Type 2 plugs? Why would there be a need to add secondary cables to the Superchargers?

In other words, why can't they wire it so you can plug a Type 2 (plug) supercharger into the top of the CCS port?

 

[Saghost]

There's still something confusing me:
Isn't the CCS2 port basically a Type 2 at the top, with 2 extra pins below?
In other words, can't you already plug a Type 2 plug into a CCS2 port?

If so, why couldn't CCS2 M3 cars be able to use existing Superchargers, which use Type 2 plugs? Why would there be a need to add secondary cables to the Superchargers?

In other words, why can't they wire it so you can plug a Type 2 (plug) supercharger into the top of the CCS port?

EU law requires CCS cables on new DCFC installations.

The language of the press release does suggest that the European 3 will only charge through CCS, though.

I'm not sure if that's because both CCS and Superchargers start from a DCFC pilot signal and the car wouldn't know which one it's plugged in to (have to reach out with both protocols and see what answers?) or because Tesla didn't want to add a second set of switching contactors to the car (can't have the pins for the other DCFC type showing 400V DC and not connected...)

Or there might be a different technical or business rationale that hasn't occurred to me.

Honestly, even with all the EU legal pressure, I never expected Tesla to make that switch.

 

[miimura]

There's still something confusing me:
Isn't the CCS2 port basically a Type 2 at the top, with 2 extra pins below?
In other words, can't you already plug a Type 2 plug into a CCS2 port?

If so, why couldn't CCS2 M3 cars be able to use existing Superchargers, which use Type 2 plugs? Why would there be a need to add secondary cables to the Superchargers?

In other words, why can't they wire it so you can plug a Type 2 (plug) supercharger into the top of the CCS port?

I think the reason is that it's cheaper to modify the Superchargers than it is to put the additional switching contactors and cables in the Model 3 so that it can support DCFC on both the upper Type 2 pins and the lower CCS DC pins. The CCS inlet makes it very clean because the upper pins are only AC and the lower pins are only DC. The original Tesla implementation that passes both AC and DC on the upper pins is more expensive and more complicated. I also speculate that the Model 3 will accept more fast charge current than the S and X and it is possible on the CCS DC pins but not the upper Type 2 pins. Therefore, in the long term, there is no good reason to support DC on the upper pins.

 

[Vostok]

I think the reason is that it's cheaper to modify the Superchargers than it is to put the additional switching contactors and cables in the Model 3 so that it can support DCFC on both the upper Type 2 pins and the lower CCS DC pins... Therefore, in the long term, there is no good reason to support DC on the upper pins.

Yep. Although it would be technically feasible, Tesla wisely made the decision not to do this, and instead add CCS2 cables to the (much smaller) number of Superchargers and keep AC and DC pins separated between the upper and lower parts of the CCS2 socket on the car.

There’s also a safety consideration. Imagine if Tesla went down the first route. If a Model 3 was plugged into an unmodified Supercharger, and there was some kind of switching/isolation failure inside the car, the exposed DC pins below the Mennekes connector could go live. Failure modes must always be safe, not potentially catastrophic.

 

[Shock-On-T]

OK, that all makes sense.
In fact, when I think about it, upgrading the superchargers in far simpler than the original supercharger deployment. There are no site costs, permits etc, which is what takes so long to deploy.
Also, the number of superchargers is tiny compared to the number of cars, pretty easy to just update the 100 or so cables in Australia compared to the 10,000 or so cars.

 

[MP3Mike]

Charging connector page, translated for us German challenged people:

CCS adapter

CCS adapter Part of the standard scope of supply? Max charge rate or charged range in an hour *.
Yes, for model S & model X *. Up to 120 kW or 400-500 km
The model 3 is equipped with a CCS connection so no adapter is required
Note: The charging power is limited by the car, not the adapter.
CCS is the most common charge standard for the European quick charging of electric vehicles. Throughout Europe operate public, fee charging networks with this standard.
These CCS charging stations are equipped with a fixed cable that can be plugged directly into the model 3. Model S and model X need an adapter to connect to a CCS charging station. For more information about downloading CCS in the Supercharger FAQ.

S&X cars delivered on/after February 1, 2019 will come with the adapter, at least in Germany.

From the FAQ:

I can recharge the model S and model X to other network providers charging stations?
We will soon receive a "CCS combo 2" adapter as an option offer. As owner of model S or model X, you can with this "CCS combo 2" adapter to recharge your vehicle to other network providers charging stations. The retail price of our "CCS combo 2" adaptor will approximately match the price of CHAdeMO adapter.

So it sounds like the S&X are limited to 120kW because of the car, at least at this time and the adapter might support more.​

 

[aegidius]

Can't get to that page - geoblocking?

 

[baillies]

Can't get to that page - geoblocking?

I got it to work by
1 logging in to Tesla
2 changing country to Schweiz
3 clicking the link above

Hope your German is better than mine ;-) although interesting it mentions 120kW

Edit: I think it is funny they mention the model 3 comes with CCS so you don’t need an adapter,

 

[Saghost]

I got it to work by
1 logging in to Tesla
2 changing country to Schweiz
3 clicking the link above

Hope your German is better than mine ;-) although interesting it mentions 120kW

View attachment 373886

Edit: I think it is funny they mention the model 3 comes with CCS so you don’t need an adapter,

Interesting. If I'm reading that table right, it seems to say the upcoming CCS adapter for the S and X will enable them to charge at up to 120 kW. The CHAdeMO adapter is limited to 50kW...

 

[MP3Mike]

Interesting. If I'm reading that table right, it seems to say the upcoming CCS adapter for the S and X will enable them to charge at up to 120 kW. The CHAdeMO adapter is limited to 50kW...

And it even says that the 120kW limit is not the adapter, it is the car.