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Using CCS chargers

Discussion in 'Australia & New Zealand' started by aegidius, Aug 31, 2018.

  1. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    There is no reason for Tesla to make any statements about charging systems for vehicles that are not yet released.

    Aside from Tesla's CharIN membership, there is no evidence to support it, but I personally believe that that the soon to be released European Model 3 will have a CCS2 inlet that will support existing European Superchargers and CCS Type-2 chargers. When RHD is released for the UK it will have the same inlet, which should make it obvious that Australian Model 3's will be the same. It will take a design refresh for the S & X to be updated to be the same. There is simply no room in the existing charging socket area for a CCS2 inlet.
     
  2. Murbs

    Murbs Member

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    How about this written evidence from Tesla I have already posted???
    https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=a2947a0e-1fb4-46bd-bc26-fb00b1c6055f&subId=658548
     
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  3. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    The Model S and X in China has a dual socket now:
    Tesla updates Model S/X charge port to support China's charging standard

    If they wanted to be more aesthetic they could put one charger type on one side of the car and the other on the other side. The charge port for the Model 3 is also larger than the Model S/X and they may have been thinking about different charging ports with that design.
     
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  4. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    The China charge port design was clearly a capitulation to regulations without regard for Tesla's typical attention to aesthetics. The Model 3 charge port area is clearly a reflection of the need for more area to support different charge port requirements around the world.
     
  5. Zoltrix77

    Zoltrix77 Member

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    Sure, but if Telsla is moving to CCS2 in Europe with the Model 3, its rather odd that they have not added CCS2 via the "China Solution" in European/Australian/New Zealand Model S and X vehicles already.

    If they are to release CCS2 on the Model 3, current S and X owners who bought their cars in the last couple of years must surely be annoyed that they won't have the ability to charge at CCS stations.
     
  6. Candleflame

    Candleflame Member

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    when model s was designed there was no standard, hence the USA novel plug. In Europe they used the modded type 2 plug but the existing hardware does not actually accomodate any new charging standard. no point adding CSS with the last facelift for the model S as the superchargers arent compatible with the CSS plug (yet)
     
  7. rohan3au

    rohan3au Member

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    I don't see why the current superchargers couldn't work with a CCS2 connector, considering the top half is a Type 2 connector. Tesla could have some active switching internally to switch the DC feed between the Type 2 pins when connected to a supercharger and the two CCS2 DC pins when using a CCS2 charger. As there's comms between the car and both charger types, the car would know what it's connected to and switch the DC between pins as required.
     
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  8. Candleflame

    Candleflame Member

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    probably because it adds complexity to the system. they probably will have to do something like that eventually because adding another CSS style hose to the superchargers isnt really feasable imho.
     
  9. alexeiw123

    alexeiw123 Member

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    A little evidence and a lot of reason.

    1) The size of the model 3 charge door - why make it bigger than their existing sockets?
    2) They have precedent: Tesla unveils a brand new dual charging port for the Chinese market
    3) As Murbs posted, why would they recommend a Gov mandated plug type they can't use?: https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=a2947a0e-1fb4-46bd-bc26-fb00b1c6055f&subId=658548
    4) It's logical to do so - the CCS2 port can be made to still accept a supercharger plug. There's a lot to gain and nothing to lose.
     
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  10. Ben D

    Ben D Member

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  11. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

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    There's still something confusing me:
    Isn't the CCS2 port basically a Type 2 at the top, with 2 extra pins below?
    In other words, can't you already plug a Type 2 plug into a CCS2 port?

    If so, why couldn't CCS2 M3 cars be able to use existing Superchargers, which use Type 2 plugs? Why would there be a need to add secondary cables to the Superchargers?

    In other words, why can't they wire it so you can plug a Type 2 (plug) supercharger into the top of the CCS port?

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Saghost

    Saghost Well-Known Member

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    EU law requires CCS cables on new DCFC installations.

    The language of the press release does suggest that the European 3 will only charge through CCS, though.

    I'm not sure if that's because both CCS and Superchargers start from a DCFC pilot signal and the car wouldn't know which one it's plugged in to (have to reach out with both protocols and see what answers?) or because Tesla didn't want to add a second set of switching contactors to the car (can't have the pins for the other DCFC type showing 400V DC and not connected...)

    Or there might be a different technical or business rationale that hasn't occurred to me. :)

    Honestly, even with all the EU legal pressure, I never expected Tesla to make that switch.
     
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  13. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    I think the reason is that it's cheaper to modify the Superchargers than it is to put the additional switching contactors and cables in the Model 3 so that it can support DCFC on both the upper Type 2 pins and the lower CCS DC pins. The CCS inlet makes it very clean because the upper pins are only AC and the lower pins are only DC. The original Tesla implementation that passes both AC and DC on the upper pins is more expensive and more complicated. I also speculate that the Model 3 will accept more fast charge current than the S and X and it is possible on the CCS DC pins but not the upper Type 2 pins. Therefore, in the long term, there is no good reason to support DC on the upper pins.
     
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  14. Vostok

    Vostok Member

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    Yep. Although it would be technically feasible, Tesla wisely made the decision not to do this, and instead add CCS2 cables to the (much smaller) number of Superchargers and keep AC and DC pins separated between the upper and lower parts of the CCS2 socket on the car.

    There’s also a safety consideration. Imagine if Tesla went down the first route. If a Model 3 was plugged into an unmodified Supercharger, and there was some kind of switching/isolation failure inside the car, the exposed DC pins below the Mennekes connector could go live. Failure modes must always be safe, not potentially catastrophic.
     
  15. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

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    OK, that all makes sense.
    In fact, when I think about it, upgrading the superchargers in far simpler than the original supercharger deployment. There are no site costs, permits etc, which is what takes so long to deploy.
    Also, the number of superchargers is tiny compared to the number of cars, pretty easy to just update the 100 or so cables in Australia compared to the 10,000 or so cars.
     

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