Volkswagen bags Autopilot program manager Alexandre Haag

[Saghost]

While that Volvo system is still Level 2 - it actually seems to be real Level 2 in that it is hands off (just not eyes off Level 3 as Audi promises for later this year).

VERY impressive that first video. I believe that capability is better than AP1 and AP2 currently in pretty much every way, no?

AP2 is more like Level 1, it is not Level 2 (hands off) in any meaningful way at this time.

I don't know what you find so impressive about that first video. Well marked lanes, gentle curves, good weather, and not in the exit lane. That's about as easy as the Autosteer problem gets.

AP1 has been able to handle that well since I got the car eight months ago under 7.1 - I suspect since the original release of Autosteer.

And that's without the mysterious jumps every 30s or so that based on the above comments probably hide him touching the wheel a bunch more.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I don't know what you find so impressive about that first video. Well marked lanes, gentle curves, good weather, and not in the exit lane. That's about as easy as the Autosteer problem gets.

AP1 has been able to handle that well since I got the car eight months ago under 7.1 - I suspect since the original release of Autosteer.

And that's without the mysterious jumps every 30s or so that based on the above comments probably hide him touching the wheel a bunch more.

Yeah, I guess I found it impressive because I drive AP2 myself!

In all seriousness, my question was about the hands off situation. I agree it may have been edited to leave those out. Is it any different to AP1 on that remains to be seen. My comparison was AP1 of today, not AP1 of... pre-crash.

As for the videos, there were not-so-well marked examples too. The Volvo Pilot Assist 2 looks very good, so the idea that AP1 is the only game in town is probably out the window with the Volvo.

Nobody here is dismissing the fact that AP1 had the best auto-steering on the market when it came out. It has just been limited since then and the competition is catching up too.

 

[Saghost]

Yeah, I guess I found it impressive because I drive AP2 myself!

In all seriousness, my question was about the hands off situation. I agree it may have been edited to leave those out. Is it any different to AP1 on that remains to be seen. My comparison was AP1 of today, not AP1 of... pre-crash.

As for the videos, there were not-so-well marked examples too. The Volvo Drive Pilot 2 looks very good, so the idea that AP1 is the only game in town is probably out the window with the Volvo.

Nobody here is dismissing the fact that AP1 had the best auto-steering on the market when it came out. It has just been limited since then and the competition is catching up too.

It was definitely edited, with repeated jumps at regular intervals; my guess is to remove wheel touches, but I don't know.

Under AP1, you would probably have had to touch the wheel twice during the video, possibly three times: I didn't see anything that I'd expect to trip a fast counter, so you'd either have the 2:10 empty lane prompts or the three minute following someone versions, and it's a nine minute video if I remember right.

You actually saw him touch the wheel three or four times, so even with the edits it's well within the capacity of AP1 today. I can't speak for what today's AP2 is capable of.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It was definitely edited, with repeated jumps at regular intervals; my guess is to remove wheel touches, but I don't know.

Yes, it was later mentioned that the Volvo system requires on occasion hands on wheel as AP1 currently does. How these compare exactly, I am not sure.

Anyway, looks good to me:

 

[AnxietyRanger]

In my view, the difference between level 2 and 3 is much more than marketing labeling or legal responsibility. Level 2 requires the driver to make the final determination if the system needs to be overridden due to road conditions, obstacles, traffic, etc. For level 3 the system can determine on its own if the driver needs to take over. Level 3 or 4 are more like a human co-pilot in an aircraft. Level 2 is like an aircraft autopilot.

To get to level 3 more sensors and much improved AI software and processing is required.

Also, level 2 does not require "hands off steering wheel." That is a myth. Level 2 requires the system to steer. Many systems do this today, including Tesla's AP1 and AP2 hardware. Keeping hands on wheel while the system steers is my preferred way for the system to insure I am paying attention. Unlike the Cadillac system, when I need to take over, I can do it instantly, with no delay to grab the wheel.

https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf

GSP

FWIW, Wikipedia has sources for a different summarization, but I agree I have seen several ways to refer to the different levels. I do not necessarily see the sae.org document and the Wikipedia article at odds on Level 2 either...

Autonomous car - Wikipedia

 

[Saghost]

Yes, it was later mentioned that the Volvo system requires on occasion hands on wheel as AP1 currently does. How these compare exactly, I am not sure.

Anyway, looks good to me:

Yup. Requires hands on wheel the same as AP! in the sense that it requires hands 5-10 times as often as AP1. I can't find an exact number, but reviewers say between 10 and 30 seconds, and the couple videos that actually showed the prompt seemed to time out to about 20 seconds.

Not sure what the snow video is showing me - the Volvo can't reliably break the right line out of the snow pack and is therefore being driven almost entirely by hand, and I suspect Tesla would be in the same boat - though the line line appears intact, and AP1 will happily drive on just one line...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@Saghost: What firmware AP1 hands-on requirements are you comparing to, btw? What is the hands-on requirement on AP1 in your view? How often needed?

 

[RogerHScott]

In that meanwhile the driver in the Audi is reading a book.

You think? You don't think it is far more likely that in order to achieve L4 they will have to set the "Aaaahh! I give up -- here, you drive!"
threshold so low that drivers are constantly having to take over (entirely) in circumstances in which a Tesla will continue to operate
smoothly with only (minimal) "driver oversight"?

 

[calisnow]

What the future Audi driver is doing in his 2018 A8 is irrelevant until the time arrives and we can do a comparison.

Speaking of which - it's high time for a new comparison test. Volvo vs Cadillac vs MBZ vs Tesla.

 

[Saghost]

@Saghost: What firmware AP1 hands-on requirements are you comparing to, btw? What is the hands-on requirement on AP1 in your view? How often needed?

I started a whole thread about timing on 8.0 a month or two ago, based on a stopwatch on a long boring good weather drive on the Turnpike.

The timing was pretty consistent - if there isn't a car in front of you being tracked around the two minute mark, you get a prompt at 2:05-2:10, unless you touch the wheel or use the turnsignal to change lanes (auto lane change resets the counter, as long as it is initiated before the initial hold wheel prompt.)

If there is a car being tracked in front of you when you get near two minutes, it holds off until the 3 minute mark (the car doesn't have to be in front the whole time, and once you get the extension, you keep it even if the car moves away.)

This didn't seem to vary with speeds within the freeway range, and so far both 8.1 versions are the same. (at very low speeds, we've been told there's no limit.)

You also get prompts when the car isn't sure of itself even if you're otherwise within an interval (like when a moderate turn comes up, or when there is something odd with the lane lines or radar returns,) and almost immediately if you press the accelerator while AP is engaged.

The oddest thing I saw was the bridge that was under construction, with a whole string of close interval prompts when there were lots of stationary steel bits in front and no cars:

The Commodore Barry bridge was very interesting and I don't entirely understand what I saw. The bridge was under construction, with one lane closed by cones and a reduced speed limit.

At 40 mph, I got hit with half a dozen 18 second interval prompts in a row when there were no cars in sight ahead of me, even though the car was steering perfectly and didn't seem to have any problems with knowing where the lane was (you can feel/see it move the wheel more when it isn't quite sure, and of course the dash displays change.)

Then it started seeing cars in front of me in the other lane and eventually in my own lane - and it ran the remaining two minutes on the bridge without another prompt.

I don't quite understand it, but it seems like some combination of the Ultrasonics seeing all the cones and the radar seeing all the stationary bridge structure tripped the very short prompts - until AP saw the other cars going through without problems.

 

[calisnow]

You think? You don't think it is far more likely that in order to achieve L4 they will have to set the "Aaaahh! I give up -- here, you drive!"
threshold so low that drivers are constantly having to take over (entirely) in circumstances in which a Tesla will continue to operate
smoothly with only (minimal) "driver oversight"?

I see your point but I doubt it. Audi is setting 37 mph max and it's limited to divided roads. This means rush hour freeway traffic, which is one of the easiest conditions for autonomous driving. Slow movement plus cars front, back and side to side to use to keep your position in lane.

 

[MarkS22]

I see your point but I doubt it. Audi is setting 37 mph max and it's limited to divided roads. This means rush hour freeway traffic, which is one of the easiest conditions for autonomous driving. Slow movement plus cars front, back and side to side to use to keep your position in lane.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if it was <37mph, limited to divided roads, AND has to be following another car. I think you need more progress to be the lead car, even <37mph to properly handle pedestrians, cars entering the road, roadwork, potholes, animals, weather, and traffic signs/lights*. By following a lead car (and lanes and side cars) in traffic, you can reduce a significant amount of guesswork.

* Even this opens up some concerns if the car being followed goes through a late yellow light, but then it will still only have to correctly handle traffic signal detection a fraction of the time.

 

[RogerHScott]

I see your point but I doubt it. Audi is setting 37 mph max and it's limited to divided roads. This means rush hour freeway traffic, which is one of the easiest conditions for autonomous driving. Slow movement plus cars front, back and side to side to use to keep your position in lane.

Wait -- all circumstances under which it won't engage at all are lumped under "Here, you take over". So you're just making my case
even stronger here. My point is that eyes-free assistance under a very narrow range of circumstances is a dubious trade for partial-
hands-on assistance under a much broader range of circumstances.

Even this opens up some concerns if the car being followed goes through a late yellow light, but then it will still only have to correctly handle traffic signal detection a fraction of the time.

What fraction of the time are you comfortable with it not correctly handling signal detection? For me, that's right around zero.

 

[oktane]

Please do. Your incessant complaining of the same thing over and over in every topic, with several posts in each topic repeating the same, gets a little tiring.

You deserve an Audi.

Your incessant complaining about my incessant complaining is also getting tiring. Good thing I don't care what you think. Oh yeah, Tesla auto pilot is a scam in case you forgot.

 

[MDMGSO47]

Would love to know the applicable times for a S 100D.

 

[calisnow]

Your incessant complaining about my incessant complaining is also getting tiring. Good thing I don't care what you think. Oh yeah, Tesla auto pilot is a scam in case you forgot.

Actually his pointing out your incessant complaining is not getting tiring.

Your incessant complaining about my incessant complaining is also getting tiring. Good thing I don't care what you think. Oh yeah, Tesla auto pilot is a scam in case you forgot.

I wish you'd stop complaining about people complaining about your complaining. If anyone has a complaint about my complaint I'll tell you where to stick it...