nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you need more solar or more batteries or more of both...
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Water heater: Gas to electric conversion illegal in California?
- Thread starter SoundDaTrumpet
- Start date
Sounds like you need more solar or more batteries or more of both...
Yeah that's why I'm in the process of getting PV + Battery. But that means I've been burning money paying these PG&E jerks each month they've gouged me.
If you don't mind me asking, what was your bill last year for July in both kWh and electric costs? Have you switched out all of your incandescent lights for LED versions? I was using 9,388 kWh in 2017 and switched all of the lights over to LED and dropped the usage down to 6,950 kWh in 2018, went up to 7,144 kWH in 2019 with higher summer heat = higher AC usage.
A single 60W bulb on for 24 hours a day for the 30 day month is 43.2 kWh and with PG&E rates around $0.26/kWh (transmission, generation, taxes, conservative fee due to overusage, etc) that is $11.23/month. I know it's insane for a single light to cost that much each month, but that is how the math works out. A 60W equivalent LED is only 8.5W, so 6.12kWh and $1.59/month. Ok, so you don't have every light on 24 hours a day, so how about 5 hours (6:00pm - 11:00pm) that is $1.87 vs $0.27 ($1.60). Buy them at Costco in bulk (60W 40 pack for $58.99 = $1.47/each) and they pay for themselves in less than a month.
Ugh - PG&E initially blamed me for my own high usage too. I got the phone call and letter in the mail lecturing me about all this-and-that. It gave me advice on what I could "do better" and maybe my bill would come down. This is a total crock of piss and poo. PG&E wants you to think you're the problem; and they want you to blame other homeowners for being the problem. Don't fall for their BS. I'll come back to this topic later in this post.
The first thing I did when moving into this house last year was to check out the CPUC's Energy Upgrade California site and go down their checklist. Same with PG&E's own energy page. Home Energy Efficiency - Assess Your Energy | Energy Upgrade California® I budgeted for all new appliances, bulbs, and major items before we moved in.
The kitchen and laundry room are all new appliances with the fancy energy star stickers. We run "full loads" only.
I now have LEDs in every lighting fixture except some fluorescent bulbs that I don't run in a couple bathrooms. I put in timers and motion sensors on all lights that I may accidentally leave on (garage, laundry room, closets etc). The outdoor lights are all LED Philips Hue that that I set to 50% brightness. Security flood lights are all motion activated.
And in February this year, I put in two top of the line Lennox HVAC systems (brand new condenser and air handler) that had the highest SEER rating in the class. But I do concede that people in my home are immuno/allergy issue prone so my HVAC runs the blower 24/7 to clean the air. I made sure that the Lennox air handlers were pulling about 60 watts (at the target static pressure). So... I guess that's $20 bucks each month of "waste" as PG&E calls it.
I don't own an EV; so this is household only energy use.
Anyway my April bill was for 957 kWh and the electricity portion was $410.48. It got a bit better for May, June after I bitched about $0.43 per kWh being total BS. But the per kWh rate just came down to the high thirties.
Closing the loop back on the bullcrap where PG&E wants customers to take the blame...
My 957 kWh monthly usage is just above the national average of 914 kWh as published by the EPA. Green Power Equivalency Calculator - Calculations and References | US EPA.
But, my usage is basically below average of states where homeowners actually run air conditioning (from the EIA):
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/sales_revenue_price/pdf/table5_a.pdf
So I'm not using abnormally high energy; PG&E is screwing me and making me feel like I'm the problem.
I (personally) have no problem with that. Heat pump water heaters are one of the most energy efficient options out there. Bonus points when that energy is produced (mostly) cleanly.
Chalk that up as opportunity cost, or cost of the lesson?
Doing the conversion couple years ago when the rebates were stronger (or when politics wrote obviously on the walls) would've saved you capital on installation, and all costs leading up to now?
I appreciate all the efficiency changes you've invested in to reduce your usage, but like Jevon's Paradox -- being more efficient doesn't mean you'll use less. It still boils down to the top energy-users, and is it within your "energy" budget.
Running the blower nearly 24/7, or whatnot, seems to have blown your "budget". Then, you fall into PG&E's penalties. In comparison, I run my blower 24/7 (on Ecobee's schedule), I have the least efficient SEER (10), but I struggle to use my utility's energy in order to not pay them monthly for under-usage. I have even switched the guest bathroom's one light-bulb to incandescent just because the fluorescent can't deal with the motion-sensor dimmer anymore.
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If you're running your blowers 24/7 you should check to make sure they're Constant Torque ECM motors. Almost all newer residential HVAC systems will have these and just about any variable speed HVAC system will have these.
The older PSC blower motors will burn money since they consume a lot of energy even at lower CFM airflow and static pressures.
In my case I spent extra time specing out the air handlers, UV Air scrubbers, MERV 16 filters, and re-did the plenums for optimal flow and cleaning potential. So, I personally do not think the equivalent of two 60 watt bulbs on my two ECM blowers running constantly is pushing my tiered energy rates from "Tier 1" into "Tier you gonna get %$*!ed".
I think PG&E just doles out useless Tiered rates for any home that is expected to run AC's. And that's a load of crap IMO since it's often over 100 out here.
Thanks for the heads-up. It's a 22 year old air-handler that turns on variably, for 10 minutes or so, under Ecobee's control with a MERV 13 filter. It runs at ~500 watts -- 18 kWh this week, 99.4 kWh this month according to TP-Link smart-plug it's plugged into. I generated 662 kWh since Aug 20th (with the 50% reduction from smog/ash), so using very little in my scheme of things. I'm due for a full-system replacement whenever the air-system actually breaks down.
How much total-power is your blowers using to push you from Tier 1? Do you have something like a Sense monitor (which mostly doesn't work), or lots of energy-monitoring smart-plugs, to quantify your usage and then you can narrow your optimization focus?
Sorry I'm just jumping into this thread, but sounds like you should do everything to take advantage of the extra sun/heat you have there. I'm in SCE territory where Tier 2 is only $0.27 / kWh comparatively. The grandfathered TOU plan, it's $0.56 / kWh during peak 2-8pm (aka A/C) hours. So gotta deal with it by getting out of their game.
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Well that 120W running for 24 hours is 2.88kwh. The baseline in the SF Bay Area is currently 10.3-10.8kwh/day, so this is 27.4% of your baseline low cost usage. Running things 24/7 adds up quickly.
Yes the blowers consume 90 kWh in a month. I mentioned that this is the 'waste' PG&E told me to cut out if I wanted to lower my bill. But, even with the blowers helping the people in this house breathe, my monthly consumption was just shy of 1,000 kWh. And I know based on research from nationwide data that this puts me in the "average" of all households in the Sunbelt.
That is why I conclude that I am getting gaslit by PG&E blaming me for the problem. The actual problem is their super small Tier allocation and hitting their "!" tier very quickly even though I'm average in terms of monthly consumption outside of California. I bet PG&E is benchmarking me to homes that are half the size without kids or in-laws.
So to re-cap, yes I can turn off my blowers to save electricity. But no, the blowers shouldn't be pushing me into the "!" tier causing $0.40/kWh (average rate for the month across my whole energy bill).
When I said variable speed air handler I don't mean it coming on and off during a certain period. I mean the blower is capable of running at different speeds depending on how much heat/cool is being demanded. The Residential HVAC manufacturers have all added "max comfort" hardware options in the last decade. These let you run the furnace or AC in adjustable strength levels. So instead of a system just blasting hot or cold air then turning on/off every few minutes, the system can just run on "low" for an extended period of time and is much more comfortable.
Imagine just pegging a house at 75 degrees instead of cooling it to 72 then watching it heat to 78 before the AC kicks on again. It's like the bee's knees.
My air handlers aren't the reason I get pushed into the "!" tier. I started running the air handlers 24/7 earlier this year before COVID lcok downs in February. That one single month compared to January only went up by about 30 kWh (yes, I know February is a shorter month). On paper I was expecting closer to 90, but I think the reason the increase wasn't as high as I thought is I'd have run the furnace anyway. And I wonder if the blowers just take less than the 60 watts I was estimating. At certain static pressure the wattage gets pretty low.
Anyway, the blowers are a red herring that PG&E was quick to jump onto since it was "proof I was a waster".
The real problem of being pushed to the "!" tier is now that I'm sheltering in place with a full family running air conditioning. But here's the rub, I'm probably consuming energy that is average (or less) compared to a non-California home in the sunbelt. The "!" tier structure is total bogus and kicks in way too early. How can a monthly kWh be "average" in Texas but then "!" in a California Suburb?
Having the air handlers was a huge help during all this wildfire mess. Really glad I got them. Screw PG&E.
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charlesj
Active Member
pdx_m3s
Active Member
We have a AO Smith Voltex hybrid electric heat pump water heater in our house. It's extremely efficient, but just be aware that they do make a fair amount of noise. You definitely do not want a HP water heater within the house.
Garage or attic is best, and the warmer the location, the better, as the heat pump is extracting heat from the surrounding air. Heat-pump run time after a long shower noticeably varies with ambient air temp. A cool basement would not be a good location for a heat pump water heater.
Garage or attic is best, and the warmer the location, the better, as the heat pump is extracting heat from the surrounding air. Heat-pump run time after a long shower noticeably varies with ambient air temp. A cool basement would not be a good location for a heat pump water heater.
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OP here. The 75 gallon gas storage water here is still working well onto it’s 16 years of operation. I am finding that replacement is in the $2900 range with extra cost attributed to the extra installer due to the size of a 75 gallons storage. I am still interested in the heat pump water heater (HPWH), but now considering using one to preheat the water, and using a series of control valves to build up a system HPWH inline with a gas storage water heater, and a way to by-pass either. I can go with smaller and less expensive and easier to handle (self-install) and maintain in the long-run. The HPWC between the 50, 65 and 80 gallon sizes all have the same heat pump/engine. Has anybody tried this or am I too impractical or having my imagination go unchecked? This is also in the garage, and wonder whether jurisdictions allow this, and does the HPWC require a pedestal to be built regardless if there is no ignition source?
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If your son used a monthly 2,000 kWh in my zip code under PG&E's BS-Baseline-Tier-Rate (no EV) during August 2020, then his electricity bill would be like $900.
I still want to see the "average family" that PG&E talks about that only uses 309 kWh of electricity in a month. There's no way this "family" lives in a part of the USA that was hitting 100F+ during a state-wide-shelter-in-place-order.
Electrph
Member
not trying to jack the current discussion of this thread but have basic questions about OP title
I will soon have solar as well as 2 PW and I currently have a newer 50gal ng water heater in 3 car garage home built in 2018
So if I understand correctly heat pump water heater pulls heat from (garage in my case) to slowly heat water and uses induction when necessary or based on programming
I have been wanting to cool garage anyway during summer for working out using home gym etc (Garage Hits 100 F often in summer) and was contemplating buying ceiling / attic fan for garage (with fire damper of course) so this would accomplish two things in my case ... cooling garage and lower ng use
I assume all I need is to run 30amp / 240v and rearrange inlet outlet / add expansion ... current ceiling vent for ng water heater would no longer be used. (Assume I have an uncle that is a plumber and another that is a decent electrician) and that we are not huge hot water users
Am I missing anything here? Downside other than initial cost (I’ll wait until maybe HD drops price again)
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The PG&E baseline/Tier 1 allowance isn't the average household, it is 50-60% of the average household in the territory with allowances for summer/winter and electric/gas heating. In the SF Bay Area territory it is currently 10.3 kWh/day in the summer and 10.5 kWh/day in the winter which translates to 20.6 kWh/day (612 kWh/day) in the summer and 21.0 kWh/day (630 kWh/month) in the winter.
Meet the "average family". I'm in the south bay with a 3500ft+ house (no pool, no EV) and for 2019 I used an average of 19.6 kWh/day which is below the average for the year, but for June (819), July (823), and August (995) I exceeded the average. For 2020 June was 836 (+17), July was 777 (-46) and August was 1211 (+216) because we were fairly stupid with the AC settings during the heatwave. That August electric bill came in at $345.20 for an average cost of $0.2851/kWh. This might be different than what you are seeing as I have Silicon Valley Clean Energy (SVCE) for generation and there is a PG&E adjustment of -$142.26 called a generation credit and then SVCE generation charge of $95.81 which nets out to -$46.45.
PG&E electric charges are high (and much higher than I see reported in national comparison surveys) and getting higher on an annually basis which is why I'm switching to solar + powerwall. Everyone in Santa Clara county was opted-in to SVCE late 2017 and if you didn't want it you had to manually opt out. It seemed like a wash at the time, but a new perk is that excess solar production is paid at the same rate as the SVCE generation costs and they will cut you a check if you generate more than you used at True-Up.
I can't talk to the chaining of water heaters but I switched from a gas water heater to a Rheem 65-gallon HPWH and they removed the pedestal and just put it on the ground. Since there was no gas it was not needed. I do have a catch-pan for leaks. I'm in California.
I've had the Rheem for nearly a year now and it works great! It uses 2-3kwh a day for a family of four over the summer. Even in the winter when it was cold it was always under about 8kwh a day.
CrazyRabbit
Active Member
That’s why I’m trying to get PV and Battery ASAP. What blows my mind is how many PG&E apologists there are in California since they’ve been indoctrinated in the Utility’s bull****.
Most of my non-solar neighbors got pushed into the “!” Cost Tier due to shelling in place and they’ve blaming themselves for not managing their own energy use “better.” Why anyone defends or rationalizes PG&E is beyond my comprehension.
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