We Aren’t Saving the Earth Like People Think When Buying an EV.

[boofagle]

The only 100% clean mode of transportation we have and will ever have is walking (and maybe horses, camels, etc.) while eating natural growing vegetation along the way everything else produces some sort of harmful waste somewhere along the process.

 

[tranquilgarden]

Even walking is not 100% clean - I walk to and from work (45 minutes each way) and need to purchase new shoes more often than I would if I drove, cycled or took the bus. And I tend to have to eat more too to have the energy needed to walk that much, so produce more waste.

Everything we do has impact - it's a matter of reducing that impact from our historically wasteful habits. An EV helps, so my next car will be an EV.

I'd like to see a reduction in the use of small engines (especially 2-cycle) used in lawn mowers, string trimmers and leaf blowers - those have substantial impact on air pollution, water pollution (from spills) and noise pollution. I use a manual lawn mower, manual shears and a broom for my yard maintenance tasks - I don't find it takes much longer and I can enjoy the fresh air until my neighbours start up their smelly and noisy lawnmowers or string trimmers!

If you have the chance, read the book "Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartmann.

 

[alcibiades]

OP 1 - Strawman 0

 

[boofagle]

I was contemplating mentioning walking in cave man times. Yes, cave men eating nothing but vegetation (no fire) were able to travel 100% clean (if you can use the argument human waste fertilizes the vegetation )

 

[T34ME]

I am neither a Trump or a treehugger (regarding the environment - both extremes).

It is disingenuous to use an intentionally derogatory and hostile term like "treehugger" without giving a definition of treehugger. I guess you can call me a treehugger because I walk several miles a day, I ride a bicycle when appropriate, I am adamantly opposed to artificial turf, I plant lots of drought tolerant green stuff around my house, I rarely use the dish washer and wash by hand, I partially power my PHEV with Solar City roof panels while patiently waiting for my TM3, and made a lifelong professional career in a treehugger profession. So yeah, I'm proud to be an "extreme" treehugger. No, I don't believe that I am saving the earth, but I do believe I am attempting to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Changing attitudes and an entire culture is incremental not an immediate absolute. To call people an extreme anything when compared to the So Called President is insulting!

Now besides driving an EV (and by your definition not saving the earth for YOUR future generations), how are you doing your part while living in your glass house?

 

[Chopr147]

"Tree huggers" calling Trump the "So Called President " is disingenuous and insulting. So you just knocked K-MTG and then did it yourself. Sorry, truth.

Anyone who thinks a Tesla was made w/o an impact to the environment is ignorant of reality.

 

[SageBrush]

I don’t think I am helping to save the earth.
Yea, it is a lot better alternative to ICE,.

These two statements are contradictory.

It should be fairly obvious that EVs can be powered cleanly. Or not. If they are powered by coal then they are dirtier than a good ICE car like a Prius; if they are powered by PV they are vastly cleaner than a Prius. Electric home appliances can be powered by coal, or they can be powered by PV (as examples of extremes.) Even though my microwave oven was almost certainly made with dirty fuel, it is vastly better to run it on PV than coal and I am quite pleased that the latter situation is at my home.

Since the large majority of pollution related to a car is related to use rather than manufacture, it is not a terrible approximation to compare pollution from use as a proxy for car pollution overall. Along that vein, however, Tesla intends to run the Nevada Gigafactory entirely on clean energy. That is quite an advance and achievement even though e.g. the steering wheel is not included.

 

[SageBrush]

"Tree huggers" calling Trump the "So Called President " is disingenuous

Does 'the Climate Change Denialist and Pro-Coal President' meet your approval ?

 

[ecarfan]

Geez folks. Missing the point. I do encourage people to move to EV. But I am not going to mislead them by doing it. I'm not trying to compare an EV to an ICE and certainly not saying an ICE is without similar issues. Simply trying to say that if EV owners think the car is a clean manufactured car and continues to be clean (ACROSS THE BOARD), then it is a bad assumption.

@FlyF4 your post is getting some pushback because the vast majority of TMC members understand that there are carbon emissions involved in making a car, EV or ICE, in fact in manufacturing anything. No news there. That said, a rational analysis shows that over the lifetime of the vehicle, an EV creates far less carbon emissions compared to an ICE even if the EV is powered by electricity produced from burning coal. If you power the EV with electricity produced by burning natural gas, carbon emissions drop considerably. If you power the EV with sustainable energy the carbon emissions are inconsequential. And of course that is the future we want to transition to, and many of us are already there. I'm sure you agree.

Anyone who thinks a Tesla was made w/o an impact to the environment is ignorant of reality.

Obviously. And very few TMC members believe that is the case.

 

[OBX John]

There is a cloud in every silver lining.

When someone demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge about EVs or tries to be sanctimonious to the point of annoyance, feel free to correct them OP.

However, assuming that you need to post a thread to correct the misconceptions of the people who populate this forum is presumptuous to say the least.

 

[JohnnyCakes]

the only thing that will save the earth is a massive and quick transformation off of fossil fuels. which pretty much reverses how every human on the planet knows how to live.

i.e. it's not happening.

so enjoy your Tesla. because it's the best driving machine there is. there isn't much time left...

 

[SageBrush]

EV creates far less carbon emissions compared to an ICE even if the EV is powered by electricity produced from burning coal.

This is not correct, but I very much agree with the remainder of your post.

Electricity generation from coal emits about 1 Kg CO2 per kWh* (and Nox and Sox, but that can be left for another discussion.)
About 7% is lost to transmission
About 15% is lost from the wall to the battery
So an EV run on coal emits about 1000/(0.93*0.85) = 1265 grams of CO2 per kWh battery energy
3 miles/kWh EV: 421 grams CO2 per mile
5 miles/kWh EV: 253 grams CO2 per mile

Petrol is about 25 lbs CO2 per gallon well to wheel or about 11,363 grams per gallon
30 mpg car: 378 grams per mile
50 mpg car: 227 grams per mile

*Average coal plant efficiency is about 33%

----
The calcs above are for the people who like to play with numbers, but a little reasoning takes us to the same place:
Coal and petrol are both hydrocarbons
The combustion engine at a coal plant tends to be somewhat more efficient than the combustion engine in most petrol cars, but that advantage is offset by transmission and charging losses. You can pick nitpick details omitted, but the overall picture is that CO2 emissions are in the same ballpark.

 

[vandacca]

This is a pointless thread. There are very few people on this planet with a zero carbon footprint. The solution to climate change is for everyone to reduce their carbon footprint as much as they can. Switching to an EV is a huge step in that direction, but it's only one step.

Even if some of your electricity comes from coal, it still a huge step. Teslas are so energy efficient, it takes much less energy to run a Tesla than an ICE car. Plus ICE cars emit other forms of pollution other than CO2 (SO2, CO, particulates, hydrocarbons, etc.). Key is that once you've switched to EV, then you reap rewards when power generation gets cleaned up or you can jump-start the process by going solar yourself.

Regardless, there are additional ways to reduce carbon footprint like recycling, using less energy, buying less, switching to solar, car pooling, biking, etc. This thread is a distraction from the conversation we should be having about reducing our carbon footprint (not eliminating our carbon footprint completely, which is next to impossible to do, and not wholly necessary for humans to reverse global warming).

 

[retinaguy]

I heard on Science Friday that the dirtiest day in the life of an EV is the day it was born. It's much better for the environment every day thereafter as compared with an ICE. Environment is obviously complex and there is not going to be a single solution. Worldwide, poverty causing pollution is a huge problem. I am originally from India and cities are choking with cooking fires and for heat. China has massive industrial pollution and likely is no different in the villages from India. Still a long way to go.

 

[rhumbliner]

The people who need to be educated are the gas guzzlers who think that global warming is a myth and nothing bad is going to happen because their truck/car spews all those gases. Let's spend our energy in educating them instead.

+1

@FlyF4, While there may be some folks who own an EV who think they are now 100% emission free, I doubt any of them would be on this forum -- you're pointing out the obvious to this group. Discussing ways of educating the climate deniers might be a more productive use of your time.

 

[Hitman007]

Good points. ALL cars are made in factories which give off toxic residue. The point where EV cars pull out ahead is the fact that they do not burn fossil fuels and have no tail pipe. Is there an argument about the coal plants that make the electricity? Of course but for many of us that is not a valid argument because here in sunny Florida I charge my Tesla from solar power. Clean and unlimited. Thats about the best we can do at this point in time. However my personal opinion is all of this is just a feel good issue anyway because stupid humans have already set the planet on a course of complete elimination of all living species within the next 100 years. Its over and no one wants to admit it. So enjoy the final moments of the party before the lights go off! lol

 

[T34ME]

"Tree huggers" calling Trump the "So Called President " is disingenuous and insulting. So you just knocked K-MTG and then did it yourself. Sorry, truth.

Oh, I meant to be disingenuous and insulting to POSPOTUS. Any President who calls a judge a "So Called Judge" deserves to be called a So Called President! NOT sorry, THAT is the truth!

Anyone who thinks a Tesla was made w/o an impact to the environment is ignorant of reality.

Anyone who thinks "anyone who thinks a Tesla was made w/o an impact to the environment is ignorant of reality" IS ignorant of reality.

Now rather than insulting members of TMC, why don't you tell us something positive you are doing to improve our environment!

 

[Chopr147]

I heard on Science Friday that the dirtiest day in the life of an EV is the day it was born.

That's a good point and true. Add to that so many EV buyers either already had solar or are looking into getting it.

 

[jmanning]

Without reading ALL of the posts...I think you brought out some great points AP. BUT the title of the thread will certainly get some people riled up..like you said, it isn't THE solution, it is PART of the solution. Renewable energy is the direction we need to go regardless of political views....

 

[larmor]

Another part of the solution which leads to mass market EV adoption with lower priced EV: adoption of solar-- however there is a catch, large utilities are going to get into solar, fast, and will this raise or lower consumer-residential and/or commercial rates?

When solar is part of the house, such as the solar roof, and is equal to the same roof cost, then for a mass market EV, the monthly rate of electric power becomes a prominent factor in the decision making process.

Coming full circle to OP, current tesla use and purchase is helping the earth, since it takes experience to build a mass market EV and build it at a profit. So if TM sells a half a million high end EVs to learn this, why not enjoy a superior car and help the process? I'm sure no one is lining up around the building to pre order a volt/bolt, i3, leaf...