Depends on the weather. It’s been 20ish F here so not getting published range (established at 70F?). I can still say that cruising at 70mph is using 300ish wh/mi.
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What is your 100% on your 90kWh battery?
- Thread starter Mikado
- Start date
My car is an earlier 90D; at 90% my projected 100% is anywhere from 276 to 278. The car has 50k miles on it and has spent every winter and summer in the northeast. I don't have the window sticker, but I believe that at the time my car was sold new the EPA rating was 288.
I do not take care for nor do I abuse the car -- I charge it at work and will sometimes charge it to 95 or 97% -- charging to the point where it will reduce the current from 30a to 15a or less, and stop saying that it will be done in 5 minutes. I assume this is near the actual peak capacity of the battery. I always drive it immediately after pulling it off the charger and make sure to get it down to less than 92% when I park it overnight. If anything the car's been "gaining" range. Perhaps I should sign up for tesla.fi but I haven't.
I have driven it on typical Massachusetts highways in mild temperatures and with the AC and heat off will exceeded both the stated EPA range and the range projections of the energy app. The same goes for driving out to a brewery in Vermont.
I have also driven it in nasty very cold weather 12 miles to work and 12 miles back; in that scenario it gets much worse mileage.
I would not be surprised if my car was in the top 20% of the first generation of 90d packs. My longest rational trip is from a suburb of boston to the berlin VT supercharger, a trip that I can do with a 99% battery and land with "50-60 miles" left though I wouldn't even try if the range-o-meter projected me to land at that SC with 10-20 miles left as I'm cruising past the NH supercharger.
Interesting (and painfully) - that drop/blip is actually ~2 month period where my Tesla sat in a body shop waiting for some parts from Tesla for a trunk repair... The car battery actually ran to dead during that period of time (long story - they had the back end entirely apart including the charging port and didn't properly disconnect the HV supply so it phantom drained to dead...).
I hate to think that being dead for a period of time like that caused that much degradation but it certainly is possible.
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Why do you "assume that this is near the actual peak capacity of the battery"? My car is very similar to yours. Including the dispaly of full charge range of about 275 miles. Yet my cars battery only has 72-73 usable kwh. My cars display of full charge range fails to reveal a large amount of degradation. Yet the Tesla techs tell me thus is normal. What is your real achievable range?
Real range, assuming you stop at zero, and you should, because the car is unsafe operating on that 4kw buffer, is your usable capacity divided by the EPA kw/mile. On the 90D, that is .290. do not use normal capacity like the car uses because it is including your 4kw buffer.
I haven't checked via teslafi or other rigorous mechanisms.
I have gotten in my car with the battery at 95% and driven it 200 miles on a highway over uneven ground at 75mph+ and arrived at a supercharger with 40 miles of range left. I don't know if that nets out to 277 actual miles or not, but it lands in the "good enough" range for me.
Of course, driving in the city in the winter I'm seeing absurdly bad range....
You just defined Rated Range, not real range. The EPA rated consumption for a 2016 Model S 90D is 330 wh/mile.
Fuel Economy of 2016 Tesla Model S
So if the battery has 82 kwh of available energy, the Rated range would be 248 miles. If I drive my car at 305 wh/mile (about as low as I can get without holding up traffic) I should get more than 248 miles of range. But in fact, I only get about 220 miles. Even while my cars display of full charge rated range is around 280 miles. The only reasonable conclusions are: my cars battery is significantly degraded. And the cars display of full charge range conceals rather than reveals battery degradation.
Agree that you are achieving a range that is pretty close to what is displayed. Good for you. My car would not get close to what is displayed as Rated range under anything that would resemble ordinary driving.
If you're unable to hit 300 Wh/mi on 19 inch wheels on level ground at boring speeds, ask the service center why.
If you're able to hit 300wh/mi and are able to keep it at that yet the car can't go 110(ish) miles and use only 2/5ths of the range, ask the service center why.
I try (honestly, it isn't that hard for me) to act dumb and just ask reasonable questions, even if I think I already know the answer. Sometimes I learn a new answer, and sometimes I want the other party to go through the process of telling me my reasonable questions are dumb or they land on the same thoughts I had.
Your car should be able to drive continuously at 300wh/mi and if it does, it should hit the range that's expected, or some reasonable approximation of that.
The power meter is necessary to keep you from getting stuck in the desert and dying, so it should be somewhat accurate...
EPA consumption on the 90D pre refresh is 290wpm. That's how they get the number at 100%. The math works out perfectly.
My long term average consumption is 351 wh/mi. With that, my range is about 200 miles (displayed Rated Range = 280 miles). I once did a test drive under ideal conditions and over 180 miles or so I achieved 305 wh/mi. If I had finished driving the battery to zero SOC I would have gone about 220 (? 230) miles. I asked Tesla Service about my car and battery, twice. They said all is normal. One time they left me a note stating that a consumption rate of 277 wh/mile was used to calculate rated range. That is, of course, nonsense. Well, maybe that is what my car is programmed for. But it is not close to the EPA figure of 330. And 277 wh/mile is not a generally achievable consumption rate. Using the cars trip computer and display of "kwh used since last charge", I determined that the usable capacity of my battery is 72-73 kwh. Should be at least 81, maybe 84 kwh. All the while, the cars display of full charge range was 280-285 miles. (is now down to 270-275)
So, altogether my car has three problems related to battery capacity and range.
1) The usable battery capacity is (and was from 6 mos of age) about 10 kwh below specifications.
2) The wh/mile factor used for calculating Rated range is incorrect, causing a falsely elevated display of range.
3) The cars display of range conceals, rather than reveals battery degradation.
Finally, Tesla service and management deserves a black mark here for telling me that my car and battery are "normal", when it is clearly not.
The EPA mileage on a 2015 90D is 340 wh/mile. The EPA mileage on a 2016 90D is 330 wh/mile. (See reference below) So my car (early 2016) is rated for either 330 or 340. Not 290.
Fuel Economy of 2015 - 2016 Tesla Model S
Those EPA numbers include charging losses, so they will be significantly higher than the rated miles calculated number.
I assume everything lies unless it is obligated for a specific reason not to. My car has on the rangeometer gray dotted horizontal line which seems to correlate with the "mileage left" in the battery. If I hoon the car or it is cold and heaters are running or it is hot and coolers are running the energy usage goes above that and my projected range is much less, according to the rangeometer / energy app.
I fully expect that tesla may play antics and hi-jinks with the display. I think I've even seen documentation to that effect.
The question is how do you ask tesla polite but fair and reasonable questions which they have a hard time answering except with simple straightforward and testable answers.
I believe that the simplest way to nail down "the display says I have 270 miles of capacity but I can only drive 180 miles before my car dies" is to demonstrate that you left on a trip on level ground at reasonable temperatures with 70% of battery to try to reach a target 160 miles away and were stranded 20 miles before the supercharger."
You should be able to hit 300wh/mi and if you do you should be able to drive 180 miles without any concern, in a model S 90D.
"It was cold your battery needed to preheat; this is expected"
"I don't think so there's no draw on the screen and I preheated before I left"
"the conditions didn't allow for ideal efficiency"
"why does the energy app say otherwise? Here are pictures from the trip of the average usage and the projected range on the trip"
"the car is behaving as expected"
"you mean I am not expected to trust the energy app? How do I plan trips? This is dangerous I don't want to be stranded."
I expect Tesla to do the right thing, but only after having explored other alternatives first.
"You should be able to hit 300wh/mi and if you do you should be able to drive 180 miles without any concern, in a model S 90D."
180 miles?
idealsol
Member
2016 90d V3 battery
Currently getting 248 or so at 90%, so appx 276 at 100%
It seems new software updates seem to sometimes equate to slightly lesser range??
Currently getting 248 or so at 90%, so appx 276 at 100%
It seems new software updates seem to sometimes equate to slightly lesser range??
Are you "getting" 248 miles from a 90% charge? Or is that the displayed range at 90%? Big difference. The displayed range may be concealing rather than revealing battery degradation. It certainly does on my car. (Full charge rated range shows 270-275 miles. But actual range is only 200-220 miles. And battery has only 72z73 kwh) And Tesla techs tell me my car is normal.
So -- let's be reasonable -- you leave at 95% rather than 100% because it is tedious to time things exactly so that you leave the house at 100% and it takes an extra hour to go from 95% to 100% anyhow.
A 90D should have no problem whatsoever doing this.
And you don't want to drive around below 15% because it is reasonable to have a buffer in case there's a traffic jam or the charging station you go to isn't open (though in that case if you're going to a supercharger and it is closed you're actually now in serious trouble if you've gotten that close to the bottom). So that means your effective range with an S90D with "reasonable" degradation is now 220ish miles.
If you can't do 180 actual miles in an S90D there's a serious problem. Further, if your rangeometer tells you you're able to hit a target 180 miles away and you can't there's an even more serious problem.
It would be totally reasonable for someone else to want to go further; for me, in my neck of the woods, going 180-220 miles at a time means you can hop over every-other supercharger and land with 10-20% SOC and charge pretty quickly and have not needed to supercharge more than 2 times in a day.
The variations in range and terrain are such that I wouldn't really expect an S90 to be able to actually drive reliably 277 miles from outlet to outlet; to do that I'd want a car with a "rated" 340 mile range, or more. Maybe that's my range anxiety, or maybe I'm just cynical enough to discount the correctness of "advertised range".
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