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What's better...full cycle charge or supercharging

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OCD technical question regarding charging practices.

In the summer I regularly drive to a cottage. In terms of charging I can either arrive at the destination with ~5% charge left and recharge overnight. Alternatively I can stop at a supercharger, partially top up and arrive at the destination with ~ 50% charge and then recharge the rest overnight. Im interested in which of the two would be better overall. Basically a tradeoff between supercharging to avoid a full cycle charge (or vice versa). Just wondering which option would be better for the health of the battery.

Realistically I appreciate the angle of "just enjoy the car" and that this may have little to no difference in terms of real world effects, but was interested none the less.

TIA
 
I wouldn't be as concerned with the battery as with the money. Supercharging is expensive and I'd advocate for using L2 at your property as much as possible. Now obviously, if you're not going to make it or arrive with a VERY low state of charge then that's different. Battery wise, going down to 5% on occaision isn't too bad for it. Just plug in as soon as you get there.
 
Not sure exactly where supercharger is on trip. Could be anywhere from 55% to 5% on the journey. But assuming it is midway:

1) Seems like start at 50%-> 5% at Supercharger
2) Supercharge to 50%
3) 50%-> 5% Cottage
4) Charge to 50% at Cottage

Vary as needed based on SuC location to minimize avg SOC and cycle depth and stay above 5% so you don’t get stuck. Also makes for much faster supercharging. Keep that charge level low!

That is probably best if you actually were really trying. Huge pain though. Just keep it stress free, whatever that is for you.
 
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I can either arrive at the destination with ~5% charge left
Well, I think you're asking the wrong question, because the condition or health of the battery would not be what I am thinking about in that particular situation. I wouldn't ever plan to drive with no margin like that to arrive with only 5%. I would top up on the way at least a bit so you have more like 10-15% margin at arrival. And then you can use that overnight charging.
 
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Well, I think you're asking the wrong question, because the condition or health of the battery would not be what I am thinking about in that particular situation. I wouldn't ever plan to drive with no margin like that to arrive with only 5%. I would top up on the way at least a bit so you have more like 10-15% margin at arrival. And then you can use that overnight charging.
This is a personal preference thing. He said summertime which is more predictable (and safer). I like more margin too, but that is so that I never have to risk slowing down to get rid of nagging from the system.
But if someone doesn’t mind the nagging and is willing to slow down, seems pretty much ok in summer. 5% is pretty much the limit though (because you can get rid of the nagging if you stay above 5% arrival charge).

The current trip planner seems a bit messed up though so practically you have to make sure you leave a lot of margin anyway just in case it errors the wrong way.

I would probably do exactly what you suggest though in this situation.
 
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seems pretty much ok in summer. 5% is pretty much the limit though (because you can get rid of the nagging if you stay above 5% arrival charge).
That's not the main issue to me though. Measurements get wonky at those very low levels. There have been some cases of cars just shutting down when people thought they had 2% left and having to get a flatbed tow, so there is no chance I would risk that kind of hassle just to try to skip a 10 minute stop.
 
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That's not the main issue to me though. Measurements get wonky at those very low levels. There have been some cases of cars just shutting down when people thought they had 2% left and having to get a flatbed tow, so there is no chance I would risk that kind of hassle just to try to skip a 10 minute stop.
Yes, definitely a bad idea to target 2%. Have to keep it above 5%. Though in these cases there is something wrong with the pack typically, there is no way to know if it could happen to you. (@wk057 suggested it is pretty atypical to shut down above 0% - I would think that is true due to the large buffer - this is one of the reasons it exists (and shouldn’t be used), after all.)

Agreed.

However, I took the question as a theoretical one. Maybe just adjust the question to use 10% rather than 5%.
 
Just wondering which option would be better for the health of the battery.

OP's question is about battery health, so taking only that into consideration, between the 2 options offered, driving it down to 5% and not stopping to Supercharge is better. It'll keep the average SoC lower, and since calendar aging is more significant than cyclic aging, keeping the SoC low will win in the long term.
 
But if you Supercharge you can get away with lower average SOC (about 25% or whatever rather than about 50%).

I agree, but that wasn't one of the options offered by OP. I believe the comparison is between 50% average SoC (run the battery down) vs 75% average SoC (100% -> 50%, Supercharge, then 95% -> 50%).

I can either arrive at the destination with ~5% charge left and recharge overnight. Alternatively I can stop at a supercharger, partially top up and arrive at the destination with ~ 50% charge and then recharge the rest overnight. Im interested in which of the two would be better overall.
 
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OCD technical question regarding charging practices.

In the summer I regularly drive to a cottage. In terms of charging I can either arrive at the destination with ~5% charge left and recharge overnight. Alternatively I can stop at a supercharger, partially top up and arrive at the destination with ~ 50% charge and then recharge the rest overnight. Im interested in which of the two would be better overall. Basically a tradeoff between supercharging to avoid a full cycle charge (or vice versa). Just wondering which option would be better for the health of the battery.

Realistically I appreciate the angle of "just enjoy the car" and that this may have little to no difference in terms of real world effects, but was interested none the less.

TIA
It is not an easy question to answer in one line. In most cases the supercharging session will wear more than a large cycle.
Your question includes two full charges, and try to reduce the wear by making the cycle smaller?
in most cases the wear from a big cycle is mainly the high SOC part, so going 100-50-100-50 do not save much cyclic wear compared to 100-0%

Supercharging without preconditioning will cause more wear than a large cycle.
-> Preheat, always is my advice.

Supercharging cause different wear depending on within what SOC range the supercharging is done. Low SOC causes much less wear than high SOC.

-> Use the low SOC region (and use a complete preconditioning) to reduce the supercharging wear. OP question seems include a about 50 to 100% SOC supercharge.

The negative effect of supercharging is lithium plating, and there is clear evidence from the research that using low SOC has a self repairing effect that returns lithium from the clogged lithium plates.

@AlanSubie4Life more or less nailed it in the way I would do it, 50-5%, if selecting the supercharging way.

As for the calendar aging mentioned, the extra calendar aging charging to 100% and driving it down to low SOC without big delay is negligible. We can charge to 100%, from low SOC, drive the car down to 0% and have a average during this time of about 50%
The OP implies using high SOC normally, so the calendar aging might be less this day than any other day anyway.
arrive at the destination with ~ 50% charge and then recharge the rest overnight

As supercharging do wear more than AC charging, we need to compare one ”big nice cycle” with one smaller nice cycle plus one Supercharging cycle at relative high SOC.

The amber dashed line is about 100% down to 5-10% or so. 1250 FCE cycles cause 20-25% degradation.
The grey dashed line is about 50% to 5-10% or so. 1250 FCE cause about 10% degradation.

The high SOC cycles causes double degradation compared to low SOC cycles.
076BA4AE-4591-4952-948C-54C39981DA4E.jpeg


Here’s the wear from supercharging to 100% (4.2V) and 90% (4.1V). The grey lines is standard charging somewhere comparable to AC charging. The amber dashed line is discharge down to 5-10% and the dashed grey is standard charging comparable to AC charging discharged down to 5-10%.
We can see that the amplitude of the discharging is about five times worse than standard charging.
This is somehow the worst scenario:
Supercharging to high SOC, and I do not remember if the cells was preconditioned.
B3EA15CB-66B2-4198-8C67-41DDDC9309F5.jpeg



Supercharging in the lower region would reeduce the wear, but still its probably more than the double using full cycles.
 
That is a long drive without a break. Personally I would make a quick stop at the Supercharger, get 15 minutes of charge while using restroom etc. Then charge fully at the cabin. Do the same on return. More relaxing and certainly less stressful.

Effect on both battery and wallet would be minimal.
 
Simulating on ABRP of my next trip (about 720km) I find out that I can choose to stop 3, 2 or even one time only (it depends on weather, traffic and so on).

ABRP states that 3 stops (about 10 minutes each) is the quickest way to arrive.
3 stops means 3 pre-heating.
So, "waste" of energy and battery "damage" at every warm-up.
Also, BMS can be unbalanced due to many dc charging without "rest".
2 (or 1) Stops means greater deep of discharge but BMS would be less unbalanced and "heating" would have less impact on battery life.

Which of them is the wise chose?
@AAKEE can You give me your opinion?
 
Simulating on ABRP of my next trip (about 720km) I find out that I can choose to stop 3, 2 or even one time only (it depends on weather, traffic and so on).

ABRP states that 3 stops (about 10 minutes each) is the quickest way to arrive.
3 stops means 3 pre-heating.
So, "waste" of energy and battery "damage" at every warm-up.
Also, BMS can be unbalanced due to many dc charging without "rest".
2 (or 1) Stops means greater deep of discharge but BMS would be less unbalanced and "heating" would have less impact on battery life.

Which of them is the wise chose?
@AAKEE can You give me your opinion?
(moderator note)

Please see post #12 in the thread I moved your newly created thread into, which already contains @AAKEE 's opinion on this topic
 
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Id like to add a little to post #12, as the question is not exaclty the same:

This is an easy one.

Fast charging causes much less degradation (lithium plating) when the battery is really hot. High temperatures increase the calendar aging by the double, but the high temperature is not going to be there specially long, and cycling wears less at a little higher temps like 25-35C.

The important part is that fast charging wear much less at low SOC, so more supercharging sessions at relatively low SOC is better than few with higher SOC and bigger depth of discharge.
This document covers fast charging and supercharging and finds the low SOC region to suffer less:
https://mediatum.ub.tum.de/doc/1355829/document.pdf

I use low SOC at SUC, as it means faster traveling and also less wear. Always precondition the battery completely.
 
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Id like to add a little to post #12, as the question is not exaclty the same:

This is an easy one.

Fast charging causes much less degradation (lithium plating) when the battery is really hot. High temperatures increase the calendar aging by the double, but the high temperature is not going to be there specially long, and cycling wears less at a little higher temps like 25-35C.

The important part is that fast charging wear much less at low SOC, so more supercharging sessions at relatively low SOC is better than few with higher SOC and bigger depth of discharge.
This document covers fast charging and supercharging and finds the low SOC region to suffer less:
https://mediatum.ub.tum.de/doc/1355829/document.pdf

I use low SOC at SUC, as it means faster traveling and also less wear. Always precondition the battery completely.
Great bedtime reading!
I got your point: you're so kind as always! Thank You so much!
 
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Id like to add a little to post #12, as the question is not exaclty the same:

This is an easy one.

Fast charging causes much less degradation (lithium plating) when the battery is really hot. High temperatures increase the calendar aging by the double, but the high temperature is not going to be there specially long, and cycling wears less at a little higher temps like 25-35C.

The important part is that fast charging wear much less at low SOC, so more supercharging sessions at relatively low SOC is better than few with higher SOC and bigger depth of discharge.
This document covers fast charging and supercharging and finds the low SOC region to suffer less:
https://mediatum.ub.tum.de/doc/1355829/document.pdf

I use low SOC at SUC, as it means faster traveling and also less wear. Always precondition the battery completely.

What do you consider low SoC for Supercharging. Something like 50% or 30%?