When will we have a Basic Minimum Income?

[mspohr]

You risked your own personal capital, and are receiving the rewards of that risk. You could have just as easily lost that money.

I get it. I really do. However, 52 years of adhering to the ethic of hard work, education, and careful financial management, conflict strongly with the notion of this level of altruism. As an IT exec, one of my core responsibilities is leveraging technology, sometimes at the expense of human jobs. That can also be a conflict. Not enough, however, to make me open my checkbook.

There is a bias towards capital in our society. If you have capital, you can live off dividends and interest and not do any work and this is perfectly acceptable. However, it you don't have capital then you are dependent on "welfare" and this is considered lazy freeloading.
What's the difference?
The problem is it's very hard to accumulate capital just by working a job. If you're lucky, you might be able to accumulate some savings to supplement retirement but not enough capital to live on.
So, how do people accumulate capital?
- inherit wealth... most common
- go into business - you need to borrow capital from someone and then establish a business where you can collect monopoly rents for some goods of services. The problem here is that you need capital to generate capital... this is not an option for most people who are working a job. Nobody will lend them any money unless they have "connections" to capital.
The system is set up to concentrate capital at the top... everyone else just works and pays into the system.
The UBI is a way to counter this bias towards capital by taxing the current concentrations of wealth and as a minimum, giving those at the bottom who do not have the advantage of being born into a wealthy family (with education and business opportunities) a minimal income.

 

[ohmman]

Google Deep Learning system diagnoses cancer better than a pathologist with unlimited time

The white paper is linked at the bottom of that article. Don't read too deeply into the headline, but do take away some of the broader implications of the success there.

 

[tomas]

True... but that should be voluntary... not mandatory.

I find it interesting how few if any people take issue with the fact that some people never have to work for $$$ if they're born into the right family... but the idea that people don't have to work for $$$ because it's no longer necessary but society still requires consumers is somehow heresy. What's the difference?

This is the cultural aspect of a UBI. I know a lot of people value hard work above all else. They don't think it's an honest dollar unless they had to sweat for it. I suspect that's one reason a lot of my coworkers have no interest in investing. They don't want their money making money... that's their job... the stubborn adherence to this paradigm is already causing a lot of suffering in former coal and manufacturing towns...

NW I am in lockstep with you most of the time, but gotta say: I've known wealthy {lucky} families who never had to work, and they've been the most messed up people I've ever met. Theoretically ok for man not to work, but the soul shrivels.

 

[nwdiver]

Theoretically ok for man not to work, but the soul shrivels.

A UBI wouldn't abolish work... it would just serve to divorce work from income. You would be free to do what provides you with meaning instead of needing to do what can provide for your family. I have a coworker that quit her job as a music teacher to work at my plant as an operator. Her income is now ~4x what it was but now there are children deprived of an experienced teacher and a teacher not doing what she enjoys...

It will be a cultural adjustment... the primary role of a UBI is to solve a structural defect on our increasingly automated society. How we work around that is up to us.

 

[tomas]

A UBI wouldn't abolish work... it would just serve to divorce work from income. You would be free to do what provides you with meaning instead of needing to do what can provide for your family. I have a coworker that quit her job as a music teacher to work at my plant as an operator. Her income is now ~4x what it was but now there are children deprived of an experienced teacher and a teacher not doing what she enjoys...

It will be a cultural adjustment... the primary role of a UBI is to solve a structural defect on our increasingly automated society. How we work around that is up to us.

I don't think we are disagreeing. Definition of work changes. However there is one sticky issue... some people, given the freedom and means, will pursue an enterprise that fulfills them and creates something. Some are just not motivated and will not have a productive enterprise. I'm not shying away from their participation in UBI, but I'm concerned about their health and influence on others.

 

[nwdiver]

some people, given the freedom and means, will pursue an enterprise that fulfills them and creates something. Some are just not motivated and will not have a productive enterprise. I'm not shying away from their participation in UBI, but I'm concerned about their health and influence on others.

That's the double edged sword of freedom...

That happens today. When my father retired from the Navy he was unemployed for a year. I wasn't living in the area at the time but he didn't do very well without a job... made everyone around him miserable. He got another job for about ~10 years and he was incredibly happy with it... he was much happier being employed even though his retirement from the Navy provided more than enough income.

 

[mspohr]

Interesting article in the Guardian reports on several studies.
One found that being poor makes you stupid (not the other way around).
Another reported on a UBI study done in 1974 that was a resounding success:
"So here’s what I’ve learned. When it comes to poverty, we should stop pretending to know better than poor people. The great thing about money is that people can use it to buy things they need instead of things self-appointed experts think they need. Imagine how many brilliant would-be entrepreneurs, scientists and writers are now withering away in scarcity. Imagine how much energy and talent we would unleash if we got rid of poverty once and for all."
Utopian thinking: the easy way to eradicate poverty | Rutger Bregman

 

[Max*]

Haven't been in this thread for a few days, a lot to catch up on!

That's precisely why this conversation is important. Desperate and ignorant voters got trumped in November. It's kinda sad... because when pressed even they don't think that Trump will be able to deliver what they need....

And this is the problem with the MSM. Not just the liberal MSM (which a lot of republicans are complaining about now), but the right hand media too.

The left attacks the right, the right attacks the left.

Instead of doing that, it would serve better to not belittle or berate the "opposing" supports, but to engage in conversation with them. Learn their points of view, even if you vehemently disagree with them.

It's time to wake up and accept reality. Most high paying manufacturing jobs are never coming back unless we outlaw automation and establish punitive import tariffs (probably not a good idea). The return of full employment isn't going to happen but a UBI could... the sooner people accept that the easier things will be.

This I agree with.

Ignorant because they chose to ignore the racism, xenophobia,hate, mysogeny and psychopathic lying.

Maybe they didn't chose to ignore it, but voted for him despite knowing those characteristics about him, hoping he can do something?

you're parroting the media and leftist talking points.

But that doesn't make him wrong though. Do you disagree that Trump is at least some of the above?

One thing that's very clear in this thread is that people have a strong distaste for giving money or services away to others even it's a sound investment. I get the feeling that will cloud any discussion about a BMI/UGI whenever it starts to be discussed more seriously.

That's the problems with the way many people think. It's hard to brake a preconceived notion. If a person thinks one way, and even if you give him facts that it's actually not true, the typical human will still try to find ways in which his original point is valid.

Our society seems to equate "having a job" with self worth but it's hard for me to understand how flipping burgers improves self esteem. I think we need to broaden our view beyond "jobs" to include an individual's participation in family and community activities as well as the arts as being "worthy".

It's about the lowest common denominator. Flipping burgers is one step up from standing on the street corner panhandling or sitting at home on welfare choosing not to look for work.

 

[mspohr]

It's about the lowest common denominator. Flipping burgers is one step up from standing on the street corner panhandling or sitting at home on welfare choosing not to look for work.

Thanks for your comments, Max.
I just want to address the last one. I think we need to get away from value judgments about work. It could be that working at a demeaning or dangerous job is worse than "sitting at home on welfare".
I personally don't work. I sit at home and collect unearned income from capital I have accumulated... similar to those on welfare. To me, this is much preferable to working most jobs.
Please don't judge me. I feel some guilt that I accumulated this capital due to a lucky circumstance of birth and also generous tax laws which don't put much of a burden on capital. Again, thanks to my lucky birth, I have also been educated in a profession which has given me many years of fulfilling work but most people don't have that opportunity.
The point is that self worth or contribution to society is not a function of employment and that we shouldn't judge people by their employment.

 

[nwdiver]

The point is that self worth or contribution to society is not a function of employment and that we shouldn't judge people by their employment.

That's gonna be by far the biggest challenge. Making self-worth self-determined. For people to accept the fact that their services are no longer required and to go live life as they see fit.

Another UBI experiment in Kenya. $22/mo for 12 years.

 

[Max*]

Thanks for your comments, Max.
I just want to address the last one. I think we need to get away from value judgments about work. It could be that working at a demeaning or dangerous job is worse than "sitting at home on welfare".

This could be one of those correlation vs. causation points, and I'm sure Ohmman or nwdiver has some good article for us to read, proving it one way or the other

But the way I see it, is that when people are bored, bad things tend to happen. Whether it's increased crime, whether it's drug addiction, etc.

Not everyone has the capability to sit at home and enjoy a hobby/do nothing.

I personally don't work. I sit at home and collect unearned income from capital I have accumulated... similar to those on welfare. To me, this is much preferable to working most jobs.
Please don't judge me. I feel some guilt that I accumulated this capital due to a lucky circumstance of birth and also generous tax laws which don't put much of a burden on capital. Again, thanks to my lucky birth, I have also been educated in a profession which has given me many years of fulfilling work but most people don't have that opportunity.

But the difference is that [I assume] at some point in your career you did work, and now chose to sit at home due to your investments. This makes you content, so more power to you.

If there's a UBI, and there's no jobs, more people would be sitting at home - not content. I don't see this leading to good things. Not everyone has a hobby/etc. they want to pursue in "retirement" (or with a UBI, in perpetual retirement).

The point is that self worth or contribution to society is not a function of employment and that we shouldn't judge people by their employment.

I agree with this.

 

[ohmman]

In the NY Times today, a piece that basically summarizes this entire thread. I'm pretty sure it covers every option we've mentioned except the "bah, humbug" parts.

 

[mspohr]

But the way I see it, is that when people are bored, bad things tend to happen. Whether it's increased crime, whether it's drug addiction, etc.

Not everyone has the capability to sit at home and enjoy a hobby/do nothing.

If there's a UBI, and there's no jobs, more people would be sitting at home - not content. I don't see this leading to good things. Not everyone has a hobby/etc. they want to pursue in "retirement" (or with a UBI, in perpetual retirement).

I think you've pointed out a basic problem that needs to be addressed. On the one hand, I don't know if it's really a problem for people to have more free time since some will use it for social and community activities. Others might literally sit at home all day... idle hands are the devil's workshop.
I think the key here is to educate people to use their free time in socially useful ways. (The NYT article covers this)
I do think that most people can enjoy not having to work at a meaningless job and won't get into trouble but we can take the opportunity to get a bit creative.

 

[nwdiver]

I for one welcome our robot landlords...

 

[mspohr]

I for one welcome our robot landlords...

They had to paint it by hand... couldn't find a robot to do that job.

 

[Max*]

They had to paint it by hand... couldn't find a robot to do that job.

Yet.

 

[ohmman]

Yet.

That's right. Look at how close we are in this amazing clip.

 

[kort677]

I think the key here is to educate people to use their free time in socially useful ways. (The NYT article covers this)

what a great idea!
we can send those who don't buy into your utopian vision to reeducation camps. that reeducation worked out real well from those in stalinist russia, pol pot's cambodia and even in revered mao's china.

 

[ohmman]

what a great idea!
we can send those who don't buy into your utopian vision to reeducation camps. that reeducation worked out real well from those in stalinist russia, pol pot's cambodia and even in revered mao's china.

I still haven't heard how the concept of having free time is different from people today who have retired - either early or on a more traditional schedule. I've heard "well, they worked for it at one point," which may or may not be true, but I am having trouble strongly differentiating the two.

edit to say: As I posted and read my post, maybe the difference is that really needing to work for some particular period of time is enough to "set in" some ideal. I haven't looked into any research done on that, but it might be worthwhile. If so, maybe that's the solution. You are made destitute at age 18, and you have to work like mad until 21, at which point you have guaranteed income for life.

 

[Max*]

I still haven't heard how the concept of having free time is different from people today who have retired - either early or on a more traditional schedule.

Statically older people commit less crimes