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There is good data to support this. Experienced doctors have poorer outcomes than newer doctors. I'm on mobile now but am happy to supply evidence later for anyone who'd like to see it.
OK, sorry. Here you go.
http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(11)00319-6/abstract
A Freakonomics episode that covers other research (this entire 3-episode series is enjoyable, btw).
Saying that studies are biased but professional anecdotes aren't seems backward to me. Though, I may be unintentionally contorting what you've said, @tomas. Your example from the Forbes' article is a good example of how the media really casts doubt upon the validity of studies. They take marginal results from exploratory studies and headline their outcomes as truth. Reading the original study and methodology is almost always the best way to get a feel for the relevance of the conclusion.
I agree that professional opinion is worth consideration, but I do think it's always tainted with a plethora of biases. And so I'm not misconstrued, I include my own opinion in that categorization.
http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(11)00319-6/abstract
A Freakonomics episode that covers other research (this entire 3-episode series is enjoyable, btw).
Saying that studies are biased but professional anecdotes aren't seems backward to me. Though, I may be unintentionally contorting what you've said, @tomas. Your example from the Forbes' article is a good example of how the media really casts doubt upon the validity of studies. They take marginal results from exploratory studies and headline their outcomes as truth. Reading the original study and methodology is almost always the best way to get a feel for the relevance of the conclusion.
I agree that professional opinion is worth consideration, but I do think it's always tainted with a plethora of biases. And so I'm not misconstrued, I include my own opinion in that categorization.
DragonWatch
Small FootPrint
Okay, back to basics. You guys/gals are finally getting somewhere. We have had input from religious bias based on their supposed work ethic. Kind of work or die philosophy, and they would rather you die.
I recently pissed off my doctor, a heart specialist, because I chose to not start taking his prescribed medication to slowdown my heart which for some reason thinks I am back in high school running what used to be called the 100 yard dash. Doc is as old or older than me, just saying ~ cause he is.
I chose to increased my vitamin B, magnizum intake, stopped regular coffee (now decaf) and worst of all my nightly glass of red wine. Then on occasion if I have trouble I analyze the situation. What I have found is that watching my sugar intake helps too. None of this is scientific, by scientific standards and not recommended by me. But I know my body, and for the most part always have. Also, if things get out of hand, I'll got to plan B and traditional medicine.
Now back to minimum basic income, with a bit more history and science. First, science has found that we humans have been on the face of Mother Earth for two hundred thousand years which smacks in the face of the religious elite. Second, science has found through DNA that we all came from the same mother, and she lived in Africa. Almost like Adam and Eve, just one hundred and eighty thousand years before humans had a language to document the story. Third, almost everyone wishes to work and participate in society when given the opportunity. Also, throughout the history of mankind we have wanted to believe that someone or thing created us and we are not here alone to be eaten by tigers and bears. Or, more to the point murdered by our fellow man. Having said that, humans have up until the discovery of what we call the United States of America we compartmentalized people based on being Asian or European as an example.
When Europeans stumbled upon America they murdered the ignorant natives, now referred to Ethinic Cleansing. Have you ever wondered why almost all space envasion books and movie plots revolve around a bloodshed takeover?
Now, if you have the stomach to handle all this and some knowledge of events in history you will find a repeating pattern. Usually in clusters of three. Like the army based on the concept that the best chance of winning a battle is to out number the bad guy/enemy by three to one ratio.
For a more recent lesson on wages and income, and I'll use dollars since we bought out the natives with sea shells instead of dollars, and the 1920's. Our nations leaders, no longer elders, chose the high road and put rules and regulations in place that were to help everyone one and not just the rich elite. As you might imagine the second phase of this was prosperity for all. Then as the bottom began embrace the concept, they became or began thinking like the rich elite and figured they had theirs and began hating anyone else that crawled out of their rickety wooden shack. Now in the final phase, phase III, we are in a mad dash to kill off the poor and disenfranchised. Based on history and current political environment we will succeed.
Also, we have four classes instead of three. We have the upper crust, middle crust, the "lower/poverty" classes; but following WWII and against General/President Eisehour's (sp) warning, we now have a military class. So we are out of wack now.
To succeed with a minimum living wage, you have to successfully control the population, you have to attack hatred and you have to have the rules & laws in place to support the concept. There is that wacky three concept again.
There is way too much more to this but you are bored and I need a shower. Remember your headwind is history and; and the rich elite, the religious elites, and the village idiot elites. This can occur but it takes will power, determination and people for success. Remember too, that not all humans are rich and elite, or religious and elite, or in the village idiot category and elite. I used to start my class near the beginning of the quarter but humorously telling them that people take small yellow pills to be stupid ~ they have to since they are not borne that way. The shock of what I was saying was when a girl at the back of the class ask if it was really true
Oh, and do not forget about our fellow inhabitants the other animals, birds and fish ~ damn it stop with the three thing
I recently pissed off my doctor, a heart specialist, because I chose to not start taking his prescribed medication to slowdown my heart which for some reason thinks I am back in high school running what used to be called the 100 yard dash. Doc is as old or older than me, just saying ~ cause he is.
I chose to increased my vitamin B, magnizum intake, stopped regular coffee (now decaf) and worst of all my nightly glass of red wine. Then on occasion if I have trouble I analyze the situation. What I have found is that watching my sugar intake helps too. None of this is scientific, by scientific standards and not recommended by me. But I know my body, and for the most part always have. Also, if things get out of hand, I'll got to plan B and traditional medicine.
Now back to minimum basic income, with a bit more history and science. First, science has found that we humans have been on the face of Mother Earth for two hundred thousand years which smacks in the face of the religious elite. Second, science has found through DNA that we all came from the same mother, and she lived in Africa. Almost like Adam and Eve, just one hundred and eighty thousand years before humans had a language to document the story. Third, almost everyone wishes to work and participate in society when given the opportunity. Also, throughout the history of mankind we have wanted to believe that someone or thing created us and we are not here alone to be eaten by tigers and bears. Or, more to the point murdered by our fellow man. Having said that, humans have up until the discovery of what we call the United States of America we compartmentalized people based on being Asian or European as an example.
When Europeans stumbled upon America they murdered the ignorant natives, now referred to Ethinic Cleansing. Have you ever wondered why almost all space envasion books and movie plots revolve around a bloodshed takeover?
Now, if you have the stomach to handle all this and some knowledge of events in history you will find a repeating pattern. Usually in clusters of three. Like the army based on the concept that the best chance of winning a battle is to out number the bad guy/enemy by three to one ratio.
For a more recent lesson on wages and income, and I'll use dollars since we bought out the natives with sea shells instead of dollars, and the 1920's. Our nations leaders, no longer elders, chose the high road and put rules and regulations in place that were to help everyone one and not just the rich elite. As you might imagine the second phase of this was prosperity for all. Then as the bottom began embrace the concept, they became or began thinking like the rich elite and figured they had theirs and began hating anyone else that crawled out of their rickety wooden shack. Now in the final phase, phase III, we are in a mad dash to kill off the poor and disenfranchised. Based on history and current political environment we will succeed.
Also, we have four classes instead of three. We have the upper crust, middle crust, the "lower/poverty" classes; but following WWII and against General/President Eisehour's (sp) warning, we now have a military class. So we are out of wack now.
To succeed with a minimum living wage, you have to successfully control the population, you have to attack hatred and you have to have the rules & laws in place to support the concept. There is that wacky three concept again.
There is way too much more to this but you are bored and I need a shower. Remember your headwind is history and; and the rich elite, the religious elites, and the village idiot elites. This can occur but it takes will power, determination and people for success. Remember too, that not all humans are rich and elite, or religious and elite, or in the village idiot category and elite. I used to start my class near the beginning of the quarter but humorously telling them that people take small yellow pills to be stupid ~ they have to since they are not borne that way. The shock of what I was saying was when a girl at the back of the class ask if it was really true
Oh, and do not forget about our fellow inhabitants the other animals, birds and fish ~ damn it stop with the three thing
You totally contorted what I said. Plz reread. I said a well conducted study was best basis but professional opinion not to be dismissed.
However, beware bias in and misuse of studies. As I read linked study, it appeared to conclude that probable cause of higher mortality was due to lower adherence to guidelines, probably because older physicians do not keep up with changes. It was cited in this thread as an example of where older doctors perform poorly due to experiential bias, intended to counter CPA's post. That is an incorrect interpretation and misuse of the study.
I think a lot of people start with an opinion, then reach for a study to support that opinion. Or worse yet, commission one. I appreciate a naked opinion advertised as such over an opinion dolled up with supporting studies hastily found via google. Having said that, big fan of fact checking, truth important, and data still reigns.
Apologies for misconstruing your message - as I mentioned, it was unintentional.
The linked study did not conclude cause. It was quasi-experimental (effectively an observational study) and concluded that there's a relationship between physician years of experience and length of stay/mortality. They pointed to a possibility of continuing education but also pointed out a number of interesting potential confounding factors in the study (older doctors may care for older patients). I cited the study as an example of where more experienced doctors have poorer outcomes. That seems to be consistent with the study's conclusion. For what it's worth, what you state above seems to me to be very similar. Experiential bias has a very close relationship to not adhering to new guidelines due to confidence levels in your existing bias. But that's just how it looks to me.
The Freakonomics piece referenced two studies that had similar conclusions. I believe all were observational, so no cause can be attributed in these studies.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
The battle to get physicians to follow clinical guidelines is a good illustration of the problems of overcoming anecdotal bias.
There is voluminous literature on the subject.
Here is one discussion
Why Aren’t Doctors Following Guidelines?
There is voluminous literature on the subject.
Here is one discussion
Why Aren’t Doctors Following Guidelines?
For what it's worth, studies also support women doctors over male, and foreign-educated over domestic. I mean, if you're shopping on stats alone.cool, glad I've got a young doctor
DragonWatch
Small FootPrint
This is an interesting topic and one I wish was possible today and should be combined with Global Warming/Climate Change. Combined? Why?
Nwdiver talks about technology eliminating jobs. No daaa. I was a part of a massive technology takeover in the earl eighties. As the very first European multiple launch rocket system (MLRS) battery commander I encountered prejudice, deep hatred, fear, lack of funding, and the story goes on. I had the first generation GPS and my seven member survey team was reduced to two people from an eight and the GPS fit in what was the back seat of a jeep. Six years later I oversaw the force reduction of thirty field artillery battalions from Europe. This trend will continue as technology continues to improve.
Additionally, congress, the senate, the president and the Supreme Court has encouraged businesses/corporations to move labor offshore, too include profit.
As long as this trend continues nothing, and I say again, nothing will change for the better.
Artificial Intelligence (AI) is and will continue to improve. And, like all computers & humans garbage in, garbage out. Soon AI/computers will take the place of the average CEO and should already be replacing CFOs saving a dump truck of load of money. The garbage in will be the bias of hate.
Population growth will continue to grow without control. As it grows and expands more and more pollution will plague animals, fish and birds. As it grows and expands the death or starilzatin of Mother Earth will worsen. At some point, just like I just bought a DVD about the life of hummingbirds we will have to buy or rent DVDs or newer technology about every form of life because only food sources and humans will be allowed to grow. Air, well the clearcut across from me tells me the future of air ~ just need a large purifier.
Humans have been walking around Mother Earth for two hundred thousand years according to science. Humans all started from the same mother two hundred thousand years ago in Africa according to science. That means that inbreeding took place in almost every new location until the population got to a point to where it got watered down enough to begin evolving and improving. Oh and we are all family; so the next you kill someone or spue hate ~ Remember they are your brother or sister literally.
Throughout time almost without fail every human sought some higher meaning in life; problem was and still is; we believe we are the center of the universe. And, everything is here specifically for us; and me alone. That means every plant, animal, bird, or fish is mine and mine alone. In the last four thousand years our grasp of the potential for a higher power has been muted and stifled.
Me, well I will have to share the MX with my wife and probably our daughter, son-in-law, and not too long from now our two grandpups. With full autopilot it will be like driving miss daisy
When I was in public school we talked about how beautiful life was, love and inclusion; today all I see and hear is hate and fU I have mine w/religion leading the charge.
I am working through life as best I can despite the zeros in my bite. Just one bit at a time I will succeed, just as I always have. If you see me and in turn seek to emulate and improve then I have been successful. If you see me and choose anther path of negative growth then I have failed. If you do not see me then my light was not bright enough and again I have failed. Success is a thin line to cross and even harder to see.
At today's prices a family must have a minimum of 75k to 100K annually. Inflation is bullshit and can be held in check. If this was 1972, I would have told you an annual income of 6K to 15k was more than enough, but that was before the bullshit factor. And the political elite piss and moan about minimum wage or fU I have mine.
Would it not be nice that after two hundred thousand years we finally grew up? Would it not make Our higher power happy? Screw our higher power, would it not just be good, or the right thing to do, or be an improvement, or be less stressful, or like sitting on the dock of your happy place? No wait, that is my dock ~ get the #%€* out of here. Okay, bring me a 24oz nonfat, decaf, latte' and you can come sit with me and enjoy the moment in time.
Nwdiver talks about technology eliminating jobs. No daaa. I was a part of a massive technology takeover in the earl eighties. As the very first European multiple launch rocket system (MLRS) battery commander I encountered prejudice, deep hatred, fear, lack of funding, and the story goes on. I had the first generation GPS and my seven member survey team was reduced to two people from an eight and the GPS fit in what was the back seat of a jeep. Six years later I oversaw the force reduction of thirty field artillery battalions from Europe. This trend will continue as technology continues to improve.
Additionally, congress, the senate, the president and the Supreme Court has encouraged businesses/corporations to move labor offshore, too include profit.
As long as this trend continues nothing, and I say again, nothing will change for the better.
Artificial Intelligence (AI) is and will continue to improve. And, like all computers & humans garbage in, garbage out. Soon AI/computers will take the place of the average CEO and should already be replacing CFOs saving a dump truck of load of money. The garbage in will be the bias of hate.
Population growth will continue to grow without control. As it grows and expands more and more pollution will plague animals, fish and birds. As it grows and expands the death or starilzatin of Mother Earth will worsen. At some point, just like I just bought a DVD about the life of hummingbirds we will have to buy or rent DVDs or newer technology about every form of life because only food sources and humans will be allowed to grow. Air, well the clearcut across from me tells me the future of air ~ just need a large purifier.
Humans have been walking around Mother Earth for two hundred thousand years according to science. Humans all started from the same mother two hundred thousand years ago in Africa according to science. That means that inbreeding took place in almost every new location until the population got to a point to where it got watered down enough to begin evolving and improving. Oh and we are all family; so the next you kill someone or spue hate ~ Remember they are your brother or sister literally.
Throughout time almost without fail every human sought some higher meaning in life; problem was and still is; we believe we are the center of the universe. And, everything is here specifically for us; and me alone. That means every plant, animal, bird, or fish is mine and mine alone. In the last four thousand years our grasp of the potential for a higher power has been muted and stifled.
Me, well I will have to share the MX with my wife and probably our daughter, son-in-law, and not too long from now our two grandpups. With full autopilot it will be like driving miss daisy
When I was in public school we talked about how beautiful life was, love and inclusion; today all I see and hear is hate and fU I have mine w/religion leading the charge.
I am working through life as best I can despite the zeros in my bite. Just one bit at a time I will succeed, just as I always have. If you see me and in turn seek to emulate and improve then I have been successful. If you see me and choose anther path of negative growth then I have failed. If you do not see me then my light was not bright enough and again I have failed. Success is a thin line to cross and even harder to see.
At today's prices a family must have a minimum of 75k to 100K annually. Inflation is bullshit and can be held in check. If this was 1972, I would have told you an annual income of 6K to 15k was more than enough, but that was before the bullshit factor. And the political elite piss and moan about minimum wage or fU I have mine.
Would it not be nice that after two hundred thousand years we finally grew up? Would it not make Our higher power happy? Screw our higher power, would it not just be good, or the right thing to do, or be an improvement, or be less stressful, or like sitting on the dock of your happy place? No wait, that is my dock ~ get the #%€* out of here
. Okay, bring me a 24oz nonfat, decaf, latte' and you can come sit with me and enjoy the moment in time.
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mspohr
Well-Known Member
Good article about NBER report.
The robot debate is over: the jobs are gone and they aren't coming back
The robot debate is over: the jobs are gone and they aren't coming back
Of course, mentions UBI as a solution.
The robot debate is over: the jobs are gone and they aren't coming back
The robot debate is over: the jobs are gone and they aren't coming back
Of course, mentions UBI as a solution.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Labour must be bold – universal benefits offer a popular way forward
Labour must be bold – universal benefits offer a popular way forward | Abi Wilkinson
Good argument for universal benefits rather than targeted means tested benefits.
Labour must be bold – universal benefits offer a popular way forward | Abi Wilkinson
Good argument for universal benefits rather than targeted means tested benefits.
BluestarE3
Active Member
Mark Zuckerberg in his Harvard commencement speech:
Mark Zuckerberg calls for universal basic income in Harvard speech
Mark Zuckerberg calls for universal basic income in Harvard speech
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DragonWatch
Small FootPrint
Good, glad you quoted it. I was but you clearly beat me to the punch.
About two or three years back a CEO set in motion paying a living wage to include janitors and secretaries in the Seattle area. Heard negative or opposing thoughts that he was trying to keep his wife from getting company money. I do not know the truth in this particular case. It is difficult to ever get the real information to include end results. Like, has productivity increased, are they still doing it, what changes have or have not been done to improve the working environment.
In the US we are politically and religiously opposed to such standards of living. Examples include taxing social security beginning around 1983. Another example: veterans once upon a time received non-taxed disability and retired disabled vets received that income on top of retirement. Now disability is simply a percentage of income which is not taxed, significant reduction. These are examples of hating those that actually worked and sacrificed for this country.
Humans on average are insecure, very low self esteem, and want to kill anyone outside their circle of influence. Often times they will kill even those that are just not white enough. We are not much better than parasites; except parasites do not kill themselves. Though, though they will on occasion kill their host.
Social Security Social Security History
The political environment on health care is conducted in the toilet.
I have watched the birth of homelessness which began in the '80s.
I have watched technology replace humans since the sixties.
I have watched jobs load the boats for greener pastures since the '80s.
You have 200,000 years of fear and anger to overcome, that is how long man is known to have been on the earth. That is two hundred thousand years of repeated history of bloodshed, death and distruction. In every culture you had an authority figure, like a king (political elites), the religious elites and the flatworlders. Almost everyone wants to belong to some tribe, community, team or anything ~ since the beginning of time. Technically we have grown by light years especially since founding of this country's landscape. Socially, socially we are retarded.
Is the world flat or round to you? Is the world flat or round to your reader? Can your reader read?
How are you going to make a basic minimum income become law? And not have it dismantled thirty, forty, or fifty years later? Humans can rationalize anything, especially life and death.
How?
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
I hope quality goes up - subcontractors that deal with my home need to be first on the list.
Also if they count the people who actually work - I'm with Mnuchin - no/little impact.
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mspohr
Well-Known Member
Are we about to witness the most unequal societies in history?
Are we about to witness the most unequal societies in history?
Interesting article in the Guardian explores some of the ramifications of income inequality, automation, and resulting biological inequality.
Are we about to witness the most unequal societies in history?
Interesting article in the Guardian explores some of the ramifications of income inequality, automation, and resulting biological inequality.
The deep irony is that the people that need a UBI the most are also the most likely to oppose it. I would love to see a poll of people that work for their income vs people that receive income from investments... I'd be willing to bet that people that work for their money would overwhelmingly oppose a UBI while investors would overwhelmingly support it.
I think that on some level working for something adds value to it. Someone who works for their income assigns greater value to money. Once you experience the turbulence of the market (I 'made' >$2k sitting on my couch yesterday) you realize how fake money is....
I don't know how to break this cycle.... my co-workers have no qualms about doing pointless labour as long as they get paid. I'm the opposite. I don't care how much I make so long as what I'm doing has value (provided my financial needs are met) I think the first step is exposing 'money' for what it really is. FAKE! Completely, 100%, fake. In nearly every sense of the word. It's a social construct. A tool for allocating resources and encouraging people to work. What happens when there's little work that needs to be done?
Too many people are ideologically stuck on the idea that 'More better technology makes more better jobs for horses'. I hope people start to recognize the absurdity of leaving resources sidelined because there aren't enough people doing work that doesn't need to be done.... it's time to shift to more of a demand side economy.
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