When will we have a Basic Minimum Income?

[tomas]

How To Catch Wild Pigs
A Lesson In Socialism

You can catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods where wild pigs frequent and placing an adequate amount of corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the area where they are used to coming. When they get used to the section of fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that small change in environment and start to eat again. You continue this process until you have all four sides of the fence up, with a gate in the last side. The pigs, which are used to eating the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat. When you see that they all are peacefully eating the free corn, you slam the gate shut on them and catch the whole herd.
Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. They eventually accept their situation and soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are now owned. They are not free to do what they used to be able to do.
That is exactly what is happening to America. The government keeps pushing us toward Communist and Socialist values and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. In other words, they are increasing the population's dependence on the government's handouts and we as a society continue to lose our freedoms, independence, and self-sufficiency, just a little at a time with every entitlement and "Free" program that is implemented and accepted as normal.
There is always someone that is willing to take your freedom and independence if you are willing to give them control of your freedom and independence. Over the centuries, many people have died trying to secure freedom and today there are so many that are willing to surrender their freedoms without giving it a second thought. It is nothing different than becoming addicted to drugs. The suppliers of these substances own you... and you have to do what they say.
One should always remember "There is no such thing as a Free Lunch!", "Nobody provides something of value without getting something in return.", and "Any entitlement the government gives you, they control and they can take away as they see fit." Someone is going to pay for it now and eventually everyone is going to end up paying for it later. And when you rely on someone else to take care of it, it will be very expensive and will probably not be done as well as it could have been because you will have to do what they say and take what they decide to give you.

No clue what this rant has to do with the topic at hand.

 

[kort677]

No clue what this rant has to do with the topic at hand.

You don't see any correlation? SMH

 

[kort677]

One usually gives credit to the original author when "cutting and pasting" something into a forum. Perhaps you might do so in the future as this might avoid plagiarism.

oh thanks for this advice

 

[tomas]

You don't see any correlation? SMH

Zero. The question is: what do we do when there just are not jobs for everyone because of productivity and automation. You are rejecting BMI... fine. But you are not proposing any solution. Why are you in this thread?

 

[Lloyd]

I don't know anyone in the "upper class" who feels guilty. The entire purpose of the "social programs" is to keep the masses from revolting, beating the (*#&@! out of the rich, and taking their stuff. That might offend some people but it's just reality.

There will reach a point where the rich no longer need to keep the masses from revolting. If one has enough private security and killer guard robots, and can live in a bubble community, then the masses can be ignored.

The Russians did that an it did not work out so well for them!

We already have Basic income! Welfare, food stamps, healthcare, subsidized housing..... More complete list from government below:

Source Federalsafetynet.com:

U. S. Welfare Programs
Antipoverty Programs

U.S. Welfare Programs fit into 13 large categories which are listed and described below. All U.S. Welfare Programs provide benefits to low-income individuals and families. The programs represent entitlements to all Americans but benefits are only paid to individuals and families with low/no income. For more information see the Definition of Welfare Page, the Entitlement Programs Page and the Social Safety Net Page.

In addition to the 13 programs shown below, U.S. Welfare Programs also include the Medicaid Program which provides health care to low-income citizens and certain non-citizens.

Negative Income Tax – Two tax credit programs are administered by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to distribute money to low-income Americans. The tax credits include a “refundable” portion which is paid to individuals and families that owe no income tax for the year. Therefore, this portion of the tax credits act as “negative income tax”. The two programs are the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), and the Child Tax Credit. More

SNAP – This is a food program for low-income individuals and families. SNAP used to be called the food stamp program and stands for Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. It is run by the USDA (United States Department of Agriculture). Participants receive a debit card which is accepted in most grocery stories for the purchase of food. More

Housing Assistance – Various housing programs are administered by the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) including rental assistance, public housing and various community development grants. More.

SSI – This is a program to pay cash to low-income individuals over 65 years of age or under 65 if the individual is blind or disabled. SSI stands for Supplemental Security Income and is administered by the Social Security Administration. More

Pell Grants – This is a grant program administered by the Department of Education to distribute up to $5,550 to students from low-income households to promote postsecondary education (colleges and trade schools). More

TANF - This is a combined federal and state program that pays cash to low-income households with the goal of moving individuals from welfare to work. TANF stands for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and is administered by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. More

Child Nutrition – These are food programs administered by the USDA (United States Department of Agriculture) which include school lunch, breakfast and after school programs. They target children from low-income households and provide free or reduced price meals. More

Head Start – This is a pre-school program available to kids from low-income families. It is administered by HHS (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services). More

Job Training Programs – These are a myriad of training programs administered by the Department of Labor (DOL) to provide job training, displacement and employment services generally targeting low-income Americans. More

WIC - This is a program to provide Healthy food to pregnant women and children up to five years of age. WIC stands for Women, Infants and Children and is available to low-income households. More.

Child Care – This is a block grant program to states and local public and private agencies who administer child care programs to low-income families. It is administered by HHS. More

LIHEAP – This is a program to aid low-income households that pay a high proportion of household income for home energy, either heating or cooling a residential dwelling. LIHEAP stands for Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program and is administered by HHS. More

Lifeline (Obama Phone) – This is a program to provide discounted phone service, including cell phones, to low-income individuals. The program is administered by the Federal Communications Commission. More

 

[Skotty]

There is always someone that is willing to take your freedom and independence if you are willing to give them control of your freedom and independence. Over the centuries, many people have died trying to secure freedom and today there are so many that are willing to surrender their freedoms without giving it a second thought. It is nothing different than becoming addicted to drugs. The suppliers of these substances own you... and you have to do what they say.

So not a fan of the Trump administration then? They are slowing erecting walls not only figuratively, but literally as well. Only difference from the pigs is that the corn is a lie.

If you support someone like Evan McMullin or Kasich or even Rubio, but not Trump, mad props to you. If you support Trump, keep an eye out. The walls are being built, and the alternative corn won't be nearly as tasty as it sounds.

 

[kort677]

Why are you in this thread?

so only those in lockstep with your views can post? really?
you are the problem not me

 

[tomas]

The Russians did that an it did not work out so well for them!

We already have Basic income! Welfare, food stamps, healthcare, subsidized housing..... More complete list from government below:

Source Federalsafetynet.com:

U. S. Welfare Programs
Antipoverty Programs

U.S. Welfare Programs fit into 13 large categories which are listed and described below. All U.S. Welfare Programs provide benefits to low-income individuals and families. The programs represent entitlements to all Americans but benefits are only paid to individuals and families with low/no income. For more information see the Definition of Welfare Page, the Entitlement Programs Page and the Social Safety Net Page.

In addition to the 13 programs shown below, U.S. Welfare Programs also include the Medicaid Program which provides health care to low-income citizens and certain non-citizens.

Negative Income Tax – Two tax credit programs are administered by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to distribute money to low-income Americans. The tax credits include a “refundable” portion which is paid to individuals and families that owe no income tax for the year. Therefore, this portion of the tax credits act as “negative income tax”. The two programs are the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), and the Child Tax Credit. More

SNAP – This is a food program for low-income individuals and families. SNAP used to be called the food stamp program and stands for Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. It is run by the USDA (United States Department of Agriculture). Participants receive a debit card which is accepted in most grocery stories for the purchase of food. More

Housing Assistance – Various housing programs are administered by the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) including rental assistance, public housing and various community development grants. More.

SSI – This is a program to pay cash to low-income individuals over 65 years of age or under 65 if the individual is blind or disabled. SSI stands for Supplemental Security Income and is administered by the Social Security Administration. More

Pell Grants – This is a grant program administered by the Department of Education to distribute up to $5,550 to students from low-income households to promote postsecondary education (colleges and trade schools). More

TANF - This is a combined federal and state program that pays cash to low-income households with the goal of moving individuals from welfare to work. TANF stands for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and is administered by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. More

Child Nutrition – These are food programs administered by the USDA (United States Department of Agriculture) which include school lunch, breakfast and after school programs. They target children from low-income households and provide free or reduced price meals. More

Head Start – This is a pre-school program available to kids from low-income families. It is administered by HHS (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services). More

Job Training Programs – These are a myriad of training programs administered by the Department of Labor (DOL) to provide job training, displacement and employment services generally targeting low-income Americans. More

WIC - This is a program to provide Healthy food to pregnant women and children up to five years of age. WIC stands for Women, Infants and Children and is available to low-income households. More.

Child Care – This is a block grant program to states and local public and private agencies who administer child care programs to low-income families. It is administered by HHS. More

LIHEAP – This is a program to aid low-income households that pay a high proportion of household income for home energy, either heating or cooling a residential dwelling. LIHEAP stands for Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program and is administered by HHS. More

Lifeline (Obama Phone) – This is a program to provide discounted phone service, including cell phones, to low-income individuals. The program is administered by the Federal Communications Commission. More

Lloyd, take it from a guy who spent 10 years trying to fix and modernize those systems, they are a mess and they were designed for people who can't work or can't earn enough to support family. Not the solution to the problem that we have when we don't NEED 30% or more to work and there indeed are not the jobs for them. Got something better? I get the impression that some posters don't believe the problem is coming, so they don't believe we need to address.

 

[Lloyd]

The programs are what they are.... and they are going to get more impacted as most have indicated in this thread, but a basic income is not the answer! It takes away personal incentive IMO. A gift from the government is distribution of wealth, right or wrong I cannot say. We have to have compassion, but compassion should stop when those we are being compassionate towards become dependent on what is being given without being able to do for themselves.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

It's a cultural evolution. Not biological. I think that if we can go from viewing owning people as acceptable to beyond deplorable in ~200 years we can probably adapt to the idea of maintaining a consumer base as the requirements for labour evaporates.

Some of the things I wrote about before are biological in nature. The propensity for humans to eat bad food, and the ease with which people believe fake news, are rooted in human biology. The short human lifespan and relatively low resistance to radiation are also biological factors, and a problem if humans want to eventually colonize deep space. Our biology is holding us back.

Culture is kind of like the Operating System of society. It's all well and good to make a better OS, but if the hardware has fundamental problems, that is something that the OS will eventually not help much with.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

The Russians did that an it did not work out so well for them!

Incorrect.

The Soviet economic model is based on government control over the means of production. The government owns industry and service providers. The government determines what is produced and how much is produced.

In a Basic Income model, the government simply writes a check for X dollars to the citizen. The citizen then spends that money on goods and services provided by the Private Sector. The government does not own industry or services other than what is needed to govern the country.

We already have Basic income! Welfare, food stamps, healthcare, subsidized housing..... More complete list from government below:

Also incorrect.

The items you listed are different from Basic Income in 2 ways. First, they are mostly (except TANF and SSI) benefits that must be spent on specific items. You cannot take a housing voucher and spend it on a car. Food stamps cannot be spent on heating oil. Second, these programs entail a massive bureaucracy and associated paperwork to administer. A Basic Income scheme merely writes a check of a specified amount. No applications papers, no ongoing requirements, no appeals, etc.

In fact, many Libertarian-leaning thinkers prefer Basic Income to the current Bureaucratic tangle of deep state organizations. Basic income would eliminate much of the federal and state bureaucracy, and put spending decisions back in the hands of individual people.

 

[Lloyd]

Have you been to Russia lately? I have and for a superpower, I was not impressed! Living conditions were very depressing!

Somebody on subsistence should not be buying a car! Food stamps no, but there are programs to subsidize heating! And, if the person spends it all on drugs, and then starves or freezes, where is our compassion?

 

[tomas]

The programs are what they are.... and they are going to get more impacted as most have indicated in this thread, but a basic income is not the answer! It takes away personal incentive IMO. A gift from the government is distribution of wealth, right or wrong I cannot say. We have to have compassion, but compassion should stop when those we are being compassionate towards become dependent on what is being given without being able to do for themselves.

Well, I'd like to hope the programs could be improved, but it is an uphill slog. I'd like to see them completely replaced... see below for ideas.

FWIW, I also choke on BMI. I don't like socialism. I also have work ethic drummed into my head. I saw Wall-E and I don't like that outcome. However, I truly do believe in the continuing wave of automation and productivity that will inevitably lead to huge non-employment in business, manufacturing, commerce. So, question is... if you believe in work (and I do), but believe traditional employment opportunities are going to drastically recede, then what's the answer? My view is not fully formed on this yet, which is why I was hoping for some good ideas in this thread rather than shouting. But what I'm thinking is something like this: there is valuable work that people in all skill categories can do, even if there's no commercial need for it. Artistic endeavors, scientific endeavors, infrastructure maintenance. I believe "idle hands are the devil's workshop", and so everyone needs to do something. How do we pay? I do not like the idea of government funded works projects, but I don't know how you address 30% or more non-employment without government participation (as Lloyd says, distribution of wealth). I'm a big fan of matching funding. If a church, foundation, local government, corporation, local business, wealthy individual is willing to "commission" projects, perhaps a federal government could match it up to an indexed basic wage (with some criteria of course). So, maybe the answer is government matching for people who are committed to productive endeavor and have some "local" funding (i.e., SOMEONE really wants it enough to put up some cash). And nothing for people who won't even try... though I also don't like the vision of people dying in the streets.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Have you been to Russia lately? I have and for a superpower, I was not impressed! Living conditions were very depressing!

First of all, you missed my point entirely. Again, what the Soviet Union attempted to implement as far as an economic model is NOT the same as Basic Income. Not even close.

Somebody on subsistence should not be buying a car! Food stamps no, but there are programs to subsidize heating! And, if the person spends it all on drugs, and then starves or freezes, where is our compassion?

This is a very coastal/elitist view. There are places in the U.S. where a car is necessary to actually get to work and hold down a job. And again, you missed my other point: many current benefits programs require people to spend on specific things, rather than giving them the power of choice. Please actually understand what I am writing before replying.

Edit: with respect to the drug problem, this is best addressed with drug courts and addiction treatment programs. Drug addiction is a public health issue and should be dealt with as such, just like Bird Flu, Malaria, and respiratory disease from pollution. It is not a consumer issue.

 

[ohmman]

I'm generally in favor of a basic minimum income as time progresses. Yes, we've had industry changes in the past and adaptation has occurred. But our population was smaller, and the changes were slower. As farming became industrialized, most farmers could live out their lives on farms, but their kids would have a new profession. I have the feeling this is going to be much closer to sudden.

As @lklundin linked to and alluded to above, what happens to all the truck drivers when autonomous semis hit the road? I'm unaware of any country on earth that has successfully implemented a wide scale rapid reeducation campaign for adults. Heck, we struggle educating kids properly, and we have 12+ years to do it.

I went to the NIPS conference in 2015, and there was plenty of talk about AI and existential threats (Bostrom was there). But the AI researchers pointed out that the destruction of the middle class, something that has already started to occur, is the true AI threat. I think the data backs that up, and Erik Brynjolffson (who was also at the conference) makes a pretty good case for it in his writing.

One way to view some kind of tax on automation is the same way we view carbon taxes. It deals with the externality of automation; that is, the unemployment of masses of people. Even a relatively aggressive tax structure is going to favor automation, but as long as the taxes can fund some level of BMI, it could work. It's not lost on me that saying this is outrageously easier than implementing. I mean, what qualifies as automation, what kind of structure is built in, who manages the fund, etc.. it's not easy.

Regarding the concern about the loss of motivation, it's a concern. I don't know how it plays out in reality, and would be interested in seeing research on the topic. I know what our human brains intuit about it, but I also recognize we're frequently wrong. Jared Diamond makes the case in Guns, Germs, and Steel that free time actually results in a more rapid advancement of human civilization. He points out that securing the food supply with formalized agriculture created free time for people to follow other pursuits besides just feeding themselves. There may be a similar effect with a BMI.

 

[Canuck]

"The best way to kill a man is to pay him for doing nothing." - Calvin Helin

 

[DragonWatch]

Basic incomes will not work, in fact no income system will ever work; our current system does not work. Russia's form of government failed because is was corrupt. Our form of government is failing because it is corrupt. For ten thousand years governments/tribes/communities/religions have repeatedly failed and will continue to do so as the world turns.
There are three competing forces against us and we will most likely fail because of three human categories that we all fit into at one time to another. First force against us, the human population exceeds sustainability. Second, technology exceeds human needs and understanding ~ less jobs. Third, Mother Earth is dying.
Then there are the three human categories: Religious Elites, Political Elites, and my favorite the Village Idits.
I grew up in the world post World War II. While I went to public schools the system failed me, but that never stopped me as I always landed on my feet. I have to believe it was primarily because I was white and I am very driven. Just to be CLEAR, without public education I would no be the human I am today.
I did not learn to read and write along with the herd, I was behind the eight ball through high school and had been told college was a bridge too far. Being fundamentally illiterate/insecure following high school I joined the army. While I joined the army to become a combat engineer, I took a left turn and wound up a chaplains assistant; the hired gun. God ensured all would be good in my life and sent all the Catholics and one Jewish assistant directly to Vietnam; all Protestants and me to Germany, the first time in years. It would be easy to think that as a religious elitist, that God was watching only me.
Later after using the GI Bill another socialist program; with two degrees in hand, I rejoined the army to become an officer. I found myself one day thinking that if I could do it anyone could do it ~ elites. Just so you know up front, you can have multiple degrees and still be a village idiot. You can be a village idiot and be a politician all mixed up in one. Or, you can be a religious elitist, political elitist and a village idiot all scrambled together. What is your mix?
Government cannot exist, good or bad, without tax monies ~ impossible ~ they are not allowed to make money ~ not the US anyway. Therefore, it has to raise taxes to meet its obligations. Therefore, it is a revenue problem if the government cannot pay its debt.
The best way to kill a government is to starve it to death.
As the money's dry up, so do social responsibilities and obligations. As social responsibilities and obligations, and jobs dry up social unrest rises. So then you are anti-social. The military is a socially funded program ~ when you hate the government; you hate the military.
Today no religion wants me (do not worry, I do not want them either) I have only a few close friends, but I will NEVER want to be like the person that is flowing over with pure hate for others, women, sexual orientation, religious preference, the poor and disadvantaged. Life is not easy and takes hard work to succeed. No one, and I mean no one has the same brain or physical body you have ~ you are therefore different ~ not special.
Years ago in the army I learned that as long as a soldier had three meals a day, was paid and received his mail he was a happy camper. It was also said that if a soldier was to have a wife, the army would have issued him one.
Bottom line: in society if you take care of the bottom, the bottom and the rest of society will take care of itself. If not ~ well that is what is called social unrest.

 

[nwdiver]

"The best way to kill a man is to pay him for doing nothing." - Calvin Helin

What about a dystopian future where the vast majority live in abject poverty? Even as society has the ability to provide but few have the ability to pay? How healthy do you think that would be?

What's the alternative? As automation and machine learning reduce labour requirements to 1:10, then 1:100, then 1:1000 how to we keep the economy moving? How to we ensure those 1000 consumers have the ability to consume the output of that 1 person massively enhanced by Industry 4.0? What's the solution? Ban Automation?

 

[tomas]

What about a dystopian future where the vast majority live in abject poverty? Even as society has the ability to provide but few have the ability to pay? How healthy do you think that would be?

What's the alternative? As automation and machine learning reduce labour requirements to 1:10, then 1:100, then 1:1000 how to we keep the economy moving? How to we ensure those 1000 consumers have the ability to consume the output of that 1 person massively enhanced by Industry 4.0? What's the solution? Ban Automation?

I don't think the 1:10 and beyond is the problem area. At that point, it's already been figured out, because if not we all just killed each other. I think it's around 1/3 to 1/2 non employment where the sociological challenge lies. One foot in the past paradigm, one foot in the unknown. Can we create a new paradigm?

 

[ohmman]

One way to view it, at least initially, is that it's like an early retirement. Nobody seems to have motivational concerns about retired people today, who are often receiving what amounts to a BMI. Maybe we can look to them to see the potential effects, controlling for age, of course.