Which is to Blame: Tom Tom or Tesla?

[stephenstohn]

First the good news. I drove an AP1 until April of this year and now drive an AP2 which recently was updated to 2017.36. On divided highways, I’m convinced it is now superior to AP1, or at the very least superior to the AP1 version that I was driving in April. I think it’s pretty much the same in-lane, but switching lanes and reacting to other cars which switch lanes I think it is definitely smoother and more graceful; same with reacting to slow-moving or stopped cars ahead.

If I’ve got a nitpick, it is that it still takes too long to wait for a car ahead which is switching out of the lane—as though it fears that even when the other car is almost out of the lane it could suddenly change its mind and whip back in.

Oh and yes, there is some very tiny ping-ponging, but only enough for the driver to notice, not a passenger.

Now the bad news.

On undivided highways, even very smooth well-marked undivided highways, my AP2 is completely useless. Why? The vehicle seems to have no idea what the Speed Limit is. I don’t know if this is a Tom Tom problem or a Tesla problem, but it’s only been occurring for the past few months. On the divided highways the vehicle knows what the Speed Limit is, but on the undivided highways it doesn’t.

So what the vehicle does is “assume” that the Speed Limit is 60 km/hr (35 mi/hr). This is far too low for an undivided highway--here in Ontario, Canada the standard for undivided highways is 80 km/hr (50mi/hr), so even if you set the AP speed offset to much higher over the limit, the vehicle caps the offset at plus 10km/hr (5 mi/hr) which is still below the actual speed limit and thus dangerous.

On the other hand, it’s also too high for in town use.

Now, I should say that within the City of Toronto the vehicle knows what the Speed Limits are, it’s when you get outside Toronto that it seems to blank out. But I find it hard to believe that Tom Tom wouldn’t know what the Speed Limit is on major (but undivided) routes in Canada.

Does anyone know where this problem is coming from?

 

[NewTMSMan]

Why not just click the stalk up until it is driving the speed you like?

 

[chillaban]

I mean, fundamentally TomTom is to blame for the data being incomplete, but I think ultimate responsibility lies with the system integrator, Tesla. They made a decision to choose TomTom over a myriad of other suppliers that would have more accurate speed limit data (e.g. NAVTEQ, Google), for cost and licensing logistics reasons...

 

[boelkers]

Does anyone know where this problem is coming from?

From what I have read on these forums, the speed limit data comes from TomTom.

I totally agree that its frustrating running on Autopilot and suddenly the car brakes because it thinks the speed limit changed. Or not being able to used AP because the speed limit data is incorrect. Theres areas of my commute where going North the car display's 60mph but going South on the same 2 lane road its 45mph.

Anytime I run into an incorrect speed limit area, I submit a bug report. Its the only way I know of to let Tesla know the data is wrong. If someone has a better way I'm all ears. Hopefully one day we'll have the cameras reading speed limit signs like in AP1.

 

[stephenstohn]

Why not just click the stalk up until it is driving the speed you like?

You can do that on TACC (and indeed I do that), but you can't do it on Autopilot...

 

[NewTMSMan]

You can do that on TACC (and indeed I do that), but you can't do it on Autopilot...

Are you sure, because I do it all the time on AP? Will check it again in an hour or so though.

 

[NewTMSMan]

OK I checked it and you are not limited in any way in AP in either my Model S or my Model X by the speed limit of a roadway. You are limited to 45 MPH for AP on an undivided roadway, but that has nothing to do with speed limits.

 

[ecarfan]

OK I checked it and you are not limited in any way in AP in either my Model S or my Model X by the speed limit of a roadway. You are limited to 45 MPH for AP on an undivided roadway, but that has nothing to do with speed limits.

That is my understanding as well.

 

[TaoJones]

During a recent excursion from Los Angeles to British Columbia and as far north past Edmonton as any Tesla has ever been while solely relying upon SCs, the shortcomings of AP2 were glaringly evident. I too had an AP1 car until late March of this year and had been to British Columbia for an extended period with that car.

Most notable with AP2 was the car's abject inability to manage the diagonal dotted lines native to (at least western) Canadian roads, and a distinct reliance upon bad TomTom data. Whose fault? Well, clearly Tesla's for foisting this regressive behavior upon us without warning.

Example:
North of Edmonton, divided highway - AP2 (with Autosteer engaged) not limited to 5mph over.
North of Edmonthon, different divided highway - AP2 (with Autosteer engaged) - limited to 5mph over.
Doh.

And don't even get me started with the miles/km misread bug introduced earlier this year. Great way to drive too fast or too slow if one isn't quick with the dividing by 1.6 thing. Especially dicey around red light cameras/photo radar when precision is important.

The latter, other than manifesting itself while AP2 is on, is separate from the bad TomTom data problem - which by the way is not limited to Canada. It's equally bad in SoCal to this day.

Lastly, I have found AP2 to be in no way as good as or better than AP1 off-highway. On highways, it's getting better, but we're still not there yet. Apart from the speed limit sign problem, the car is inconsistent in lane centering and, well, it's a long list.

I also expect zero improvement in this arena until after Model 3 production stabilizes. And by zero improvement, I mean parity with AP1, which was promised by December 2016 and which in no small measure factored into my fateful decision to order a 2nd Model S at that time. Which was a mistake.

To even think about past parity features (see the E in EAP and anything having to do with FSD, including traffic light and stop sign *reaction* versus mere recognition) may well a hardware upgrade. There's a lot of data moving from our cars lately for those who follow that sort of thing. Expect that trend to increase.

 

[Blissedout]

From what I have read on these forums, the speed limit data comes from TomTom.

I totally agree that its frustrating running on Autopilot and suddenly the car brakes because it thinks the speed limit changed. Or not being able to used AP because the speed limit data is incorrect. Theres areas of my commute where going North the car display's 60mph but going South on the same 2 lane road its 45mph.

Anytime I run into an incorrect speed limit area, I submit a bug report. Its the only way I know of to let Tesla know the data is wrong. If someone has a better way I'm all ears. Hopefully one day we'll have the cameras reading speed limit signs like in AP1.

I suggest an email to National Service. They forward it to the right people. I have found after a month or so the speed limit issues get corrected. Be sure to give them a time stamp for the issue.

 

[stephenstohn]

OK I checked it and you are not limited in any way in AP in either my Model S or my Model X by the speed limit of a roadway. You are limited to 45 MPH for AP on an undivided roadway, but that has nothing to do with speed limits.

Thank you for this and I stand corrected! I can’t check my circumstance until this weekend when I head back to the country. My problem of course is not really related to speed limits per se, but rather to the absence of the vehicle recognizing speed limits, I am simply being limited to 70 km/hr (40 mi/hr) on undivided highways where the speed limit is 80 km/hr (50 mi/hr) and the average driver is going 90 km/hr (55 mi/hr)—but if you are right and I can over-ride the cap, then I will be much happier.

 

[fasteddie7]

OK I checked it and you are not limited in any way in AP in either my Model S or my Model X by the speed limit of a roadway. You are limited to 45 MPH for AP on an undivided roadway, but that has nothing to do with speed limits.

That’s odd. My commute is mostly undivided highway and I can far exceed 45 with AP1 and autosteer. I don’t dare do it often, but I can reach upwards of 60.

 

[boelkers]

OK I checked it and you are not limited in any way in AP in either my Model S or my Model X by the speed limit of a roadway. You are limited to 45 MPH for AP on an undivided roadway, but that has nothing to do with speed limits.

This is not my experience at all. 25 miles of my 27 mile commute is on undivided roadways with a speed limit of 55 mph. When the Tesla knows the correct speed limit of 55 mph, I can go up to 60 mph in AP. However if I'm driving on a road that the Tesla does not know the speed limit of I am limited to 45 mph in AP.

 

[Az_Rael]

This is not my experience at all. 25 miles of my 27 mile commute is on undivided roadways with a speed limit of 55 mph. When the Tesla knows the correct speed limit of 55 mph, I can go up to 60 mph in AP. However if I'm driving on a road that the Tesla does not know the speed limit of I am limited to 45 mph in AP.

This is my experience with the AP2 loaner I had. Divided highway, but on federal land, so not in the Tom Tom speed limit map. Limited to 45mph (actual speed limit is 65mph). AP 1 can read the signs so lets me go the speed limit.

 

[vandacca]

Listening to everyone's (differing) experience with AP2 speed limits, it would seem to me that the following is true:
- Tesla has moved to a new provider of speed limit data (TomTom is believed to be the source)
- This data is incomplete, since a lot of roads don't seem to report a speed limit
- When data is missing, some seem to indicate no speed limit is imposed on AP2, while others indicate an incorrect limit is imposed.

I suspect that both is correct. In some cases, the speed limit is incorrect and causing a lower or higher AP2 limit. In cases where there is absolutely no data, I suspect that Tesla doesn't impose any speed limit. So, when on a undivided highway, results will be mixed, depending on what TomTom has listed for a speed limit.

I have AP1, so I can't confirm any of this.

 

[NewTMSMan]

I stand corrected, I just found a local road where I was limited by 5 MPH over the limit in AP. Guess where I live most of the non-divided highways are <45 MPH or are considered divided highways where I can set the limit I want. Sorry for mis-info.

 

[ditzpro]

Tesla (in my case) has no idea what unposted speed limits are ..I live in a rural area where the unposted limits are 55 mph .
Mostly I am limited to a 35 limit which allows 40 mph ...Totally , Ap is unusuable here...Funny ,
Let me set my own speed with Ap on any road ...Driving with AP1 or AP2 is a crapshoot anyway ..You'd better be paying attention as anyone who is using this knows ,especially when it jerks over to the left or right unexpectedly .