Whitestar info soon ?

[tonybelding]

The whole REEV thing brings up some debate... What qualifies to be called a REEV?

You'd have to ask GM, since they invented the term. And it was later adopted by Tesla and now Chrysler, apparently.

Is it just if the motive force is 100% electric motor?

That was Bob Lutz's description. Well, it has to have something other than batteries to be "range extended", I suppose. Unless they get some higher capacity batteries and decide that qualifies as range extended.

So what if you just take a Ford F150, and replace the transmission with a DC generator hooked directly to a DC motor. Then it is a 100% electric motor driven vehicle (although 100% powered by an ICE generator). I assume that this would not be called a REEV.

According to GM it would. Unless they change their mind. Because ultimately REEV means whatever type of vehicle GM's marketing department thinks will sell best if it's called a REEV.

It's all arbitrary. It's a marketing term that GM invented to make their plug-in hybrid sound like it's not a hybrid.

 

[AGR]

One question, how do you test a battery pack, on the assumption that one is buying a used Volt/Fisker/Whitestar with 40,000 miles how do you know how long the battery pack will last?

Is anyone going to log how often the battery pack cycled?

What depreciation guidelines would be applied towards the battery pack? Same as the rest of the car?

 

[Kardax]

One question, how do you test a battery pack, on the assumption that one is buying a used Volt/Fisker/Whitestar with 40,000 miles how do you know how long the battery pack will last?

Is anyone going to log how often the battery pack cycled?

What depreciation guidelines would be applied towards the battery pack? Same as the rest of the car?

To test it, you build a battery pack and attach it to a test machine to simulate realistic loads. The pack doesn't get moved at all, just charged and discharged to various points, maybe heated and chilled, etc.. if you track all the details, you'll end up with a nice lifecycle chart you can base your recommendations upon. You can compare the results to other cycling patterns to figure out what is healthiest for the battery.

Tesla is probably doing this already for WhiteStar, and already has done it for the Roadster battery system.

-Ryan

 

[stopcrazypp]

One question, how do you test a battery pack, on the assumption that one is buying a used Volt/Fisker/Whitestar with 40,000 miles how do you know how long the battery pack will last?

Is anyone going to log how often the battery pack cycled?

What depreciation guidelines would be applied towards the battery pack? Same as the rest of the car?

On a BEV Whitestar it will be straightforward: just look at the odometer. On the PHEV Whitestar/Volt/Fisker I would imagine the car will do the pack cycle log for you automatically. Since they will most likely have an information display like most hybrids, you should even be able to see it on screen. Even if that is not the case I would imagine you can get the data from the diagnostic port avaliable in pretty much any new car today. I would hope they won't leave the consumer to do the logging.

You make a good point as the battery pack life should play a big role on the value on a used PHEV or hybrid.

Hmm, I wonder if any hybrids today have battery cycle logs already, any hybrid owners out there care to comment?

 

[TEG]

When I was shopping for a used BEV they advertised various cars with different "max freeway range". Basically they fully charged it and then drove it until the charge ran out. Not exactly friendly to the pack, but it is one way to test the health.

With a used Fisker or Volt you could fully charge it then drive a consistent speed on the freeway until the ICE turned on. That would give you some idea of pack health.

(Other factors such as ambient temperature could skew the results a bit, but someone could try to factor that in as well).

Another thing they can do is measure full pack voltage when fully charged. A tired pack tends not to hold the same voltage as a brand new one.

Yet another test is to measure differences in cell (or slice) voltage when you run down the pack. A tired pack may have some cells (or slices) that discharge more quickly than others.

A new industry will probably crop up to do this sort of work once there are enough PHEVs and BEVs on the road.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Another thing they can do is measure full pack voltage when fully charged. A tired pack tends not to hold the same voltage as a brand new one.

Yet another test is to measure differences in cell (or slice) voltage when you run down the pack. A tired pack may have some cells (or slices) that discharge more quickly than others.

A new industry will probably crop up to do this sort of work once there are enough PHEVs and BEVs on the road.

Those are probably more accurate ways to measure the state of the battery, but I still think having a cycle log should be a easy way to do it too, as pretty much all new cars today have the electronics on board to be able to do it.

There was already talk about the industry changing when hybrids came out, but it didn't really change. I guess it's because the market penetration is still very low so far, and hybrids didn't turn out to be that different. PHEVs and BEVs are significantly different enough that maybe this time the industry WILL see a big change (and then comes the fear that the mechanics will all be put out of work, esp as a result of the BEV).

 

[TEG]

I still think having a cycle log should be a easy way to do it ...

Cycle log wouldn't' necessarily tell you the whole story. You could have faulty cells that had some kind of imperfection from the manufacturing stage that led them to age prematurely.

I bet the Roadster ESS computers could tell you all sorts of details about pack history and health. The question is if if that info would be generally available or only for factory use.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Cycle log wouldn't' necessarily tell you the whole story. You could have faulty cells that had some kind of imperfection from the manufacturing stage that led them to age prematurely.

I bet the Roadster ESS computers could tell you all sorts of details about pack history and health. The question is if if that info would be generally available or only for factory use.

Eh, the cycle log is kind of like the same idea as the odometer. It lets the consumer do a quick and easy reading onto the status of a car without factoring in factory defects, and it could be a number to post when you sell your PHEV/BEV (akin to posting how many miles are on your odometer). I suppose you would want to do more indepth tests when you buy a used car, similar to sending the used car first to your mechanic, which is more in line with the solutions you are proposing.

 

[BBHighway]

More Whitestar Hints

Greentech media article talks a bit about Whitestar. Notable are the references to charging in under one hour, and quick change battery packs.

Greentech Media | Tesla's Second Unveiling

 

[TEG]

"The company is also developing the WhiteStar's battery pack to be switched out quickly."

Interesting. The sense I had gotten was that Tesla had already decided against doing something like this (even though the blogger hordes kept bringing up the idea).

Old Tesla stance:
* Liquid cooling is not desired for the motor
* Multi-speed transmission is needed
* 3+ hour charge is fine
* Battery pack should never be removed except for service
* BEV or bust

New Tesla stance:
* Liquid cooled motor is being planned
* One speed gearbox for both Roadster and Sedan
* ~1 hour charge (where?!)
* Swappable battery packs
* Gasoline "range extender" engine generators are planned.

Most of these changes seem appropriate to me (although I really wish they didn't have to go the way of the REEV), but it is surprising to see so many things changing. I could dig up old TM blog entries where they talked about no quick charge, no battery swap, no liquid cooling, BEV only, etc, but I don't think I need to spend the time. There were also press releases assuring everyone that Whitestar was 100% BEV... So things are really changing.

I am going to hope and assume that hub motors, and perpetual motion devices are NOT showing up on the roadmap :wink:

Other concepts that I wonder about:
* ICE/Generator being optional/removable? (For now it sounds like it will be a permanent part of REEV Whitestar)
* ICE/Generator or larger battery pack being in a trailer? (Probably still a dead idea even though ACP did it)
* Blend of regen and friction brakes when using the brake pedal? (Perhaps too many patents to license?)
* Solar panels on the car (Tesla said no, but Fisker is doing it...)

 

[Cobos]

Yeah I've noticed quite a few of these changes as well but never put them in such an informative post I wonder if Martins departure is connected with these changes?

I'm thinking solar panels on the roof might actually be a good idea. Not to try to recharge the car much as that is hardly possible with todays cells but to climate control the car as well as , more importantly, the battery. Simply because when the car is sitting in a lot somewhere with the sun shining for hours on end I would worry about the battery overheating and that would also be the time the solar cells are the most effective.

Cobos

 

[TEG]

My guess is that the real hurdles for Tesla were not trying to agree what to do as much as when to do it. I would bet it is wrong to oversimplify to say that they needed to change CEOs to pursue these specific features.

The usual time/content/resources rules apply. If delivery dates were in danger there would likely be discussions of what features to push forward. First impressions suggested that the previous CEO never wanted the 2 speed or REEV, but when you read his blog you find that wasn't the case... It was more about timing.

I am trying to view this as all "water under the bridge" now as much as possible. My point in listing things that have changed is not related to staff changes at Tesla... It is just about the general directional changes they are showing as a company. At this point I think we should be well beyond the "what would the old CEO have done" mindset.

 

[WarpedOne]

* Liquid cooled motor is being planned

If they need it, no problem there. It is a century old tech.

* One speed gearbox for both Roadster and Sedan

If there is enough torque/rpm range for desired performance, no problem there also.

* ~1 hour charge (where?!)

Only at special charge points at some Hotels, drive-ins etc. Not at your home and not at many places.

* Swappable battery packs

Forget about that. I bet needed technology and engineering for safe, fast and reliable battery swapping is more expensive than big Li-Ion battery pack.

* Gasoline "range extender" engine generators are planned.

When it comes to "me-too", I go to well known and proven providers. Who will service the ICE? Tesla's people in their new service centers alongside BEVs?

 

[TEG]

* Gasoline "range extender" engine generators are planned.

I go to well known and proven providers. Who will service the ICE?

The Greentech article said : "the first model to go into production will be the all-electric version"

So at least the BEV version will have some chance to stand on its' own and prove itself. I gather REEV Whitestar would be "plan B" if price and/or range issues were keeping BEV Whitestar from selling out.

I also guess that both Fisker and Tesla will use some "commodity" proven ICE. Perhaps Fisker will use something like a GM Ecotec i4 usually used in the Cobalt line. With Tesla's Lotus connection perhaps they could use the Toyota 2ZZ-GE engine that is found in the US Elise? Both of these engines are available with supercharging if they needed extra ICE power. Both are proven, smooth designs that could be serviced all over the place.

I suspect you might be able to find a generic auto shop who does Toyota's to do routine stuff on your Toyota Elise engine, but I doubt the Toyota dealerships would want to touch it. Some Elise owners talk about service over here

I guess we will have to wait and see. These REEVs will probably have engines that are found in more common cars, but I don't know if the regular service procedures will apply or if you have to take them to the specialty manufacturer for service. Also, traditional service intervals would need to be adjusted. For instance, you don't need to change the engine oil every 3000 miles if most of it was powered by batteries alone. Perhaps the REEVs will need two odometers... Miles driven, and hours of time with the ICE on.

 

[doug]

I also guess that both Fisker and Tesla will use some "commodity" proven ICE. Perhaps Fisker will use something like a GM Ecotec i4 usually used in the Cobalt line. With Tesla's Lotus connection perhaps they could use the Toyota 2ZZ-GE engine that is found in the US Elise? Both of these engines are available with supercharging if they needed extra ICE power. Both are proven, smooth designs that could be serviced all over the place.
...
These REEVs will probably have engines that are found in more common cars...

While I agree they may be able to get an "off the shelf" engine for the REEV, I would think both these engines you mention would be overkill. They should want a simpler engine that's optimized to run at a fixed load and fixed rpm. Also, though the engine might likely be turbocharged (which actually increases efficiency as well as compression), supercharging doesn't really make sense.

 

[AGR]

There's a German company that makes an innovative range of diesel engine up to 200 HP with a turbo, this would be an ideal "range extender".

As for service, of course the Tesla dealer would service the entire car, and perform the maintenance and warranty work.

 

[TEG]

I would think they would try to get maybe 200hp out of the ICE so they could maintain good performance even when the battery pack was low.
0-60 in 6 secs in a car bigger and heavier than the GM Volt will require a lot more than the ~70hp ICE the Volt may get.

I am not sure people would welcome the noise of running the ICE at optimal RPMs every time you charge. They might have to run at different RPMs to match required energy needs so when you step lightly on the "gas" pedal the ICE doesn't rev up very high.

 

[TEG]

Or maybe Tesla will surprise us with something radical like the Sterling engine or a turbine. I don't know.

 

[donauker]

Given that the ICE in a series hybrid or REEV does not need to be designed for peak power such as 0 - 60 times, but only average power, I would guess on something in the 70 to 120 HP range.

I would also say that the chance of anything other then an ICE is virtually nil for the near future. They will need to go with the least cost, tried and proven route. I would love one with a bio diesel powered micro turbine though. That would be a great sound to compliment the electric motor!

 

[TEG]

Fisker hints:

"a small four-cylinder engine attached to a very large generator"

"the electric and gas motors can be run in concert for peak performance."

"gasoline or diesel engine"

"based on a setup developed for certain stealth reconnaissance vehicle used by the US Army"

I thought I had read somewhere them saying "high performance" or "high output" 4-cyl, but now I can't find it. Maybe it will be a lot less than 200 max hp. With ~125MPH top speed they don't need outrageous HP.