Why bother to pre-order the new Model 3 (or whatever it is called now)

[cfttester]

CHAdeMo on paper is a good alternative and should allow city to city travel, but in practice most charges are nowhere near the CHAdeMO spec limit and take more than 2X as long to charge, even though they charge a heavy premium price, often over $20 per charge. Many timeout after 30 minutes, because they were not designed to charge larger batteries and over heat, meaning you have to pay for 2 or more charge sessions to fill a larger battery. Quite a few are at dealers and are only usable during business hours, and frequently blocked. Also a surprising number just don't work, making them very unreliable and often force the driver to switch to a J1772 site near by, and spend many hours charging just to get home.

Obviously I can dig enough negative responses on Tesla Charging Stations and present them vs a perfect experience at CHAdeMO station (For example, can they charge more then one car at a maximum rate at the same time?). But this is a topic for a separate discussion.

 

[MrBoylan]

Thank you, for correcting me. Twice is too good for the Supercharger. IRL the CHAdeMO provides about 110A versus 126A for 85kwh battery. For 70kwh the difference will be negligible. Proof link below.

What that video shows proves that Supercharger rates are superior to Chademo for quick charging. All cars started with 68 km of range. As Bjorn says himself in the comments, "After 30 minutes, supercharger have added 195 km and is charging at 53 kW. CHAdeMO have added only 96 km and is charging at 41 kW."

So for a 30 minute charge, the Supercharger has added twice the range of a Chademo charger over the same time period. (to the 85 kWh Tesla) and about 30% more to the 60 kWh battery. 60 kWh battery was discontinued about 18 months ago, so this is clearly an "older" car.

SC speeds are increasing (for compatible cars) and the Model 3 efficiency should be a bit higher than the S and X due to smaller size, lower weight and lower drag coefficient. So replenishing range on the Model 3 from a Supercharger should be even faster. Of course, you can *also* use Chademo to charge the Tesla via the Chademo adapter. Options are good.

 

[MrBoylan]

I do own Nissan Leaf since 2011. Got it in August. Put about 80k miles on it so far. What is your "expertise" in EVs?

What's the range down to in that thing? About 45-48 miles? My brother's 2011 Leaf has less than 50 miles range left at about 90K miles on the odo. He still drives it and it works for him as he has charging stations at work and solar panels at home. He has already saved enough in gas and maintenance costs that he's ahead of the game compared to a comparably priced ICE.

 

[MrBoylan]

First of all - thank you.
Second - it's quite interesting, that the most obvious reason i.e. pissed-off customer, alludes you.

Actually more like pissed-off *almost* customer. We have a lot in common that way, except I'm not pissed off.

 

[cfttester]

So for a 30 minute charge, the Supercharger has added twice the range of a Chademo charger over the same time period. (to the 85 kWh Tesla) and about 30% more to the 60 kWh battery. 60 kWh battery was discontinued about 18 months ago, so this is clearly an "older" car.

But, would you agree, that the chance Model 3 is getting 85kwh battery is pretty much 0?

 

[cfttester]

What's the range down to in that thing? About 45-48 miles? My brother's 2011 Leaf has less than 50 miles range left at about 90K miles on the odo. He still drives it and it works for him as he has charging stations at work and solar panels at home. He has already saved enough in gas and maintenance costs that he's ahead of the game compared to a comparably priced ICE.

Battery was replaced at 55K miles. The new battery shows no degradation over the 25K miles.
After replacement the range holds around 70-75 miles, but you should factor in that more then half of it is on highway.

 

[Zaxxon]

Wow, this thread sure exploded quickly. Like the OP, I also recently canceled my Model X reservation. The reasons aren't germane to this discussion, other than to point out that not everyone who jumped ship from their X reservation is 'pissed' at Tesla. I'm disappointed with various aspects of the vehicle, the way its development unfolded, and Tesla's continued poor performance in the communications department. Not 'pissed off.'

But I'm still here, and will be in line at my local store on 3/31 placing a deposit for a Model 3. Why?

• Nearly a decade after the first Roadster shipped, Tesla is still the only manufacturer seriously advancing the EV movement. Other manufacturers are making baby steps, but not nearly quickly enough for my tastes. Further, it can be persuasively argued that most if not all of those baby steps have occurred thanks to Tesla's existence. I want to show my support for Tesla's vision today. Whether this reservation significantly advances the arrival of my vehicle or not is almost beside the point.
• I'm reasonably certain I'll actually purchase a 3. Unlike the X, the 3 will have less impact on our budget, and I'll likely be more receptive to the car even if it doesn't meet 100% of my wants and needs.
• The reservation provides me with flexibility. If I'm ready to place a fairly high-specced order ASAP, it moves me closer to the front. If I'm not ready right away, then-like the X reservation did-it gives me an early opportunity to see and drive the car compared to the unwashed masses with no reservations, and still moves me closer to the front whenever I do place the order.
• It's $1k. If it moves me up one level in the tax credit phase-out (which I think is a fair possibility, if not overwhelmingly likely), that $1k deposit 'earns' me between $1875 and $3750. If not, well. At least I earn 1% cash back on the credit card, which is within shouting distance of what my bank would pay if i dropped it in savings instead. For $1k it's just a no-brainer to me.

Hopefully that's a sufficient list for cfttester (or whatever (s)he's called now).

 

[JRP3]

Obviously I can dig enough negative responses on Tesla Charging Stations and present them vs a perfect experience at CHAdeMO station (For example, can they charge more then one car at a maximum rate at the same time?).

Irrelevant since each supercharger location has more plugs than most Chademo locations, so even if the second car charging on a shared supercharger is going slower it's infinitely faster than the nonexistent "second" Chademo plug, or third, fourth....etc.

But this is a topic for a separate discussion.

Yes, it's simply a continuation of your misplaced attempts at misdirection. You're trying to somehow connect the idea that people should not reserve a Model 3 to your opinion that the clearly inferior Chademo network is somehow better than the Supercharger and Chademo networks combined. Again, Tesla has access to both, so no matter how superior you think the Chademo network may be, Tesla vehicles benefit as well. It's a failed line of reasoning.[/QUOTE]

 

[MrBoylan]

I've stayed out of this insane thread for a while, mostly because (forgive me) it is way too TM Forum style. But.. I'll just say the reason I'm reserving a Model ☰ is to stay active on this forum. Otherwise, I'll get my Model X and probably disappear. It's a lot more fun to keep all of you looking at my avatar and dealing with my ridiculosity for an indefinite amount of time.

Ohmman! Nice to see you. Do you have a delivery date yet?

 

[cfttester]

But I'm still here, and will be in line at my local store on 3/31 placing a deposit for a Model 3. Why?

• Nearly a decade after the first Roadster shipped, Tesla is still the only manufacturer seriously advancing the EV movement. Other manufacturers are making baby steps, but not nearly quickly enough for my tastes. Further, it can be persuasively argued that most if not all of those baby steps have occurred thanks to Tesla's existence. I want to show my support for Tesla's vision today. Whether this reservation significantly advances the arrival of my vehicle or not is almost beside the point.

I agree with you that they started this trend, but I'd argue that they lost a focus last 2-3 years. Now TM is into design of extra large windshields, gulf-wing doors, bio-hazard filters and useless autopilot gimmicks. So, why subsidize them on this path?

• I'm reasonably certain I'll actually purchase a 3. Unlike the X, the 3 will have less impact on our budget, and I'll likely be more receptive to the car even if it doesn't meet 100% of my wants and needs.

That's indisputable. I'm slightly concerned who are they really targeting with the new product. Tesla fanboys should remember, that BMW sold only about 300k 3 series in US in 2014. Do they really believe, Model 3 will bite off more then 10% during 2018? And BMW will sit and watch while it happening?

• The reservation provides me with flexibility. If I'm ready to place a fairly high-specced order ASAP, it moves me closer to the front. If I'm not ready right away, then-like the X reservation did-it gives me an early opportunity to see and drive the car compared to the unwashed masses with no reservations, and still moves me closer to the front whenever I do place the order.

I'm glad you have 1000 to bury for a year or two. Do you think a target demo for the Model 3 has this option too?

• It's $1k. If it moves me up one level in the tax credit phase-out (which I think is a fair possibility, if not overwhelmingly likely), that $1k deposit 'earns' me between $1875 and $3750. If not, well. At least I earn 1% cash back on the credit card, which is within shouting distance of what my bank would pay if i dropped it in savings instead. For $1k it's just a no-brainer to me.

Make sense, thank you.

Hopefully that's a sufficient list for cfttester (or whatever (s)he's called now).

It's already established here. Call me Mary, Mary Barra

 

[JRP3]

Now TM into design of extra large windshields, gulf-wing doors, bio-hazard filters

They are not. They were with the X, Elon has clearly stated they will keep the 3 less complex, and that they learned their lessons.

...and useless autopilot gimmicks.

Few who have it seem to think it's a useless gimmick, all other OEM's are working on it, and it gets Tesla lots of free press. It's a necessary technology that Tesla must pursue.

 

[cfttester]

Irrelevant since each supercharger location has more plugs than most Chademo locations, so even if the second car charging on a shared supercharger is going slower it's infinitely faster than the nonexistent "second" Chademo plug, or third, fourth....etc.

But they have more locations (and here we are going on forth loop)

Yes, it's simply a continuation of your misplaced attempts at misdirection. You're trying to somehow connect the idea that people should not reserve a Model 3 to your opinion that the clearly inferior Chademo network is somehow better than the Supercharger and Chademo networks combined. Again, Tesla has access to both, so no matter how superior you think the Chademo network may be, Tesla vehicles benefit as well. It's a failed line of reasoning.

No, I'm trying to disconnect decision to reserve Model 3 from existence of "free" Tesla Chargers. Because it's one of many features of the car and likely will be available as an option for some $$$$

 

[cfttester]

They are not. They were with the X, Elon has clearly stated they will keep the 3 less complex, and that they learned their lessons.

Let's wait and count how many time he will use word "cool" describing Mod 3

Few who have it seem to think it's a useless gimmick, all other OEM's are working on it, and it gets Tesla lots of free press. It's a necessary technology that Tesla must pursue.

I'm talking about auto summon. I'm not an expert in press relations, but I know a thing or two about software development. I'm not 100% sure that press was exactly "free".

 

[MrBoylan]

Sorry, but it's a waste in your opinion, which obviously none of us seem to share...
There are in fact a number of good reasons to reserve early, but hey, keep trying to talk some people out of it, that only moves the rest of us up a bit further.

Maybe that's the hidden agenda? He can't make it to a store on 3/31 so wants to get a few people not to reserve so he gets an earlier spot?

But I thought of some other reasons to reserve the car early that have nothing to do with getting one earlier, so to bring it back squarely on topic...

Reasons to Put a Deposit on a Model 3 on March 31:

1. You're showing a vote of confidence for Tesla's mission (sustainable transportation), and voting with your wallet.
2. You're moving from Tesla fan to Tesla customer (well, OK, future customer, but still a step in the right direction)
3. The perks (maybe?) - my Model X deposit got me into the September launch event and into the "Meet Model X" cocktail party and test drive events. So I got to play around with the world's coolest EV more than I would have without a reservation. I imagine there may be similar events in the early days of the Model 3 that will be available for deposit holders only.
4. Bragging rights. When everyone starts talking about the Model 3, you'll already be in line for one.

 

[dsm363]

Sorry, I had to. Otherwise, the defeating argument would be too simple - Tesla is the only one making EVs in the whole world, so stop complaining, open your checkbook and try to enjoy the process. By the way there are a couple of comments like that in this thread.

I'm quite amazed how well the non-existent marketing department in TM is "dumping" into the people brains. They managed to plant an idea that people, who buy Tesla Models, are on a mission of some kind and they have to do cross-country trips in there EVs (I guess to promote the mission). Obviously the mission itself would not work, because there are other EV manufacturers.

More baseless accusations. Please quote the posts where people said Tesla makes the only EV in the world, stop complaining...etc. And no one said you have to do cross country trips, just that you can. Unlike in say the Leaf (without it taking a month charging at RV parks). Try again.

 

[dsm363]

Have you visit at least a half of them?

You don't have to. Have you tried traveling from the Bay Area to say Vancouver in your Leaf? Easy trip in the Model S. A much more difficult trip in the Leaf but CHAdeMO is 110A you say, forgot about that.

 

[dsm363]

Long range it not just for cross country. You keep emphasizing that, but it's not what most people want or need or even care about.

Long range is for traveling between cities easily, quickly and without hassle. San Diego to LA and back on a Model S requires no stops for charging. That is a big deal for some. it means most of the time they never need to interrupt their day to charge. If they need to go further, supercharges make it easy and free (or easy an prepaid/included in the price of the car)

CHAdeMo on paper is a good alternative and should allow city to city travel, but in practice most charges are nowhere near the CHAdeMO spec limit and take more than 2X as long to charge, even though they charge a heavy premium price, often over $20 per charge. Many timeout after 30 minutes, because they were not designed to charge larger batteries and over heat, meaning you have to pay for 2 or more charge sessions to fill a larger battery. Quite a few are at dealers and are only usable during business hours, and frequently blocked. Also a surprising number just don't work, making them very unreliable and often force the driver to switch to a J1772 site near by, and spend many hours charging just to get home.

Exactly. Try going from Reno to Sacramento over the mountain in the Leaf. Less than a 200 mile trip but couldn't make it in the Leaf and no CHAdeMO stations I know about on the way.

 

[nwdiver]

Chances are that Model 3 will not get free charging on Supercharger network. Plus, other EVs has there own fast charging options.

??? On what is that 'logic' based? Tesla has been going in the opposite direction. From optional => All cars equipped but $2k to activate => Standard. Tesla appears to prefer to simply embed the cost of the network into every car built. Sure appears much more likely that every 3 will come with unlimited access to the supercharger network.

 

[liuping]

Obviously I can dig enough negative responses on Tesla Charging Stations and present them vs a perfect experience at CHAdeMO station (For example, can they charge more then one car at a maximum rate at the same time?). But this is a topic for a separate discussion.

It belongs in this discussion, because you are asking why someone would preorder a Model 3, when all these other "200 mile range EVs" will be available by the time it ships. Since they will all be using CHAdeMO or SAE charging, which is just nowhere near as easy to use or reliable as Superchargers, that is a Huge reason why people will want the Model 3 over those other EVs.

Even the perfect CHAdeMO Experience you mentioned will be slower than the normal every day Supercharger experience.

In the example of two Teslas sharing a Supercharger, those 2 Teslas will still charge faster than basically any other single EV charging at a CHAdeMO station, so while it may be a "complaint" on these forums, it is not a reason to think CHAdeMO is a viable alternative.

Then take into account that most CHAdeMO sites have only 1-2 stalls (vs 4-12 stalls for SuperChargers) which, when open, and working, are often filled with local Leafs and other short range EVs, and you understand why the superchargers are more convenient for any medium to long distance travel (which is any trip longer than 200 miles round trip, not just cross country or interstate trips)

 

[Auzie]

I'm wondering if "Joe Average" thinks like people here do and is willing to place a deposit for x years before even being able to configure his/her car as it is my understanding that for average person the availability (getting car quickly*) plays a big part?

I have no doubts that the demand will be there, at least eventually, but I'm separating reservations and placing a real order in my mind.

*) Yes, you can make the argument that "well placing the reservation makes people get their car quicker" but what I mean is that the general public might be more inclined towards products that are available straight out of store or within couple of months of placing an order. And as such, I would expect the demand for Model 3 to increase with the availability of Model 3.

My expectation is that "Joe Average" is now buying cars out of the inventory, rather than pre ordering. I would be surprised if Tesla does not start selling model 3 out of inventory.

Tesla might shift such attitude to a limited degree, by creating exceptionally strong and desirable brand and by creating a buzz around their cars and ownership.

I see similarities between migrating masses (average Joes) from pre iphone phones (what were they???) to post iphone phones and migrating drivers from ice cars to Tesla cars, and hopefully some other good ev brands yet to come.

Many people indifferent to new technology never lined up to buy iphone (or similar technology phone), but once they put their hands on one, no one goes back to old technology.