Why you should not ignore Auto Pilot warnings to keep you hands on the wheel

[Snowstorm]

This is a potential reproduction case, I used AP 2018.12 on an AP2.0 model s across 2 similar situation today and it worked fine. Is the behaviour deterministic or does it vary based on lighting, cars etc even in the same road?

Issues will happen on the way to full autonomy, let’s hope progress isn’t slowed too much due to these bumps along the way. Either from a lack of will to do more, or from over burdensome restriction placed on the consumer that makes these features no longer as desirable for use and further investment (constant nag every 5 sec).

 

[jsmay311]

Why is Tesla put on the defensive here and is it natural to assume that Autopilot is self-steering? It is not [...]

"Autosteer" literally means "self-steer". Lol.
the definition of auto-

Suppose we change the semantics. Suppose we call it Lane Keeping Assist (LKAS) rather than Autopilot

Because "Lane Keep Assist" is its own thing and is fundamentally different than Autosteer.

 

[Victor3]

How is it fundamentally different?

 

[P100DHG.]

It’s super easy to die. Here are a few suggestions

Close your eyes
F$&# with your cell phone
Here is another great way "Autopilot Buddy®"

If you want to meet god these are great suggestions.

Keep your eyes on the road and hands on the wheel and autopilot can make long rides in traffic or road trips much more enjoyable.

 

[umeshunni]

Why doesn't the collision warning system warn while the median is approaching?

 

[ggnykk]

No audio warning for imminent collision. Camera and AI system fails to pick up and recognize the barrier. Radar system designed to ignore stationary objects (the barrier). Auto braking never kicks in. Quadruple FAIL!!

 

[widodh]

Whoever designed and painted that road should be arrested.

I agree. Living in the Netherlands it scares me that lane/road markings in CA are so bad and dangerous.

I can imagine a system like AutoPilot being confused here.

 

[yesup]

Suppose we change the semantics. Suppose we call it Lane Keeping Assist (LKAS) rather than Autopilot (let's set aside the Speed Assist aspect for now). With this semantic change it completely takes on a different and more realistic meaning. It also changes the expectation.

I totally agree.

AutoPilot is a very misleading term given its current capability.
Most people already have expectation from what they know about "AutoPilot" as used in airplane. And it is a very unfortunate marketing decision by Tesla. No doubt it is much more sexy and attention grabbing term than "Lane Keeping Assist"; but the downside is unrealistic expectation for the system.

Because "Lane Keep Assist" is its own thing and is fundamentally different than Autosteer.

How different?
BMWs, Mercedes.... now can all steer and keep in lane on a highway.

 

[Saghost]

I totally agree.

AutoPilot is a very misleading term given its current capability.
Most people already have expectation from what they know about "AutoPilot" as used in airplane. And it is a very unfortunate marketing decision by Tesla. No doubt it is much more sexy and attention grabbing term than "Lane Keeping Assist"; but the downside is unrealistic expectation for the system.





How different?
BMWs, Mercedes.... now can all steer and keep in lane on a highway.

This seems to be more about the general public not correctly understanding airplane Autopilot than about the differences between the two.

Ask any pilot, and you'll quickly find out that they have to pay close attention at predictable times while the plane is in AP, just like you do in a Tesla.

 

[Sonic_78]

It’s a level 2 system. Yes, let the car drive itself long enough on its own and it will probably crash into something. It relies entirely on the driver to correct its mistakes, at any time, even without warning.

As in using any system, in any area in our lives, you have to understand its limitations. I can’t expect to dim my lights just by turning the wall switch off slowly.

This video proves as a perfect example how driver negligence can kill you. Keep you hands on the wheel and eyes in the road.

That being said, thanks for braving the experiment. It may indeed show how the recent MX crash happened. It also shows how an attentive driver can prevent an accident.

I can only imagine how many deaths there could have been if every AP2 drivers never intervened on false exit ramp departures or hill cresting swerves. Always be ready to take control at any time, even without warning.

 

[Snowstorm]

AutoPilot is a very misleading term given its current capability

Autopilot is actually a very fitting term.

For most of history, and even for most planes today (by numbers, if you include light aircraft) autopilot on planes where the term is most well known is an assist tool rather than full autonomous tool. Most will keep your altitude and heading, but that’s about it, definitely requires human monitoring.

 

[croman]

AP definitely can do more than recognize lane lines. Those are just the grea indicators but it used curbs road edges etc too. AP is designed poorly if it does what is pictured in video.

 

[dlsspy]

Car slowly over a period of time misinterprets the lane markings (which I also did watching this video, waiting for the sudden jerk off a cliff). A human driver may have noticed sooner that something wasn't right.

Doesn't look like the car noticed the crash attenuator. I suppose there were a few technological limitations there, most of which I'd assume would be notice by the human operator.

I don't always pay close attention when driving on a long stretch of interstate, but when there are exits, lane changes, etc... I tend to do the work myself.

 

[jsmay311]

"Lane Keep Assist" is its own thing and is fundamentally different than Autosteer.

How different?

With "Lane Keep Assist" systems, the driver is still doing all of the steering and the system will only "nudge" the car back towards a lane when it starts crossing over the edge of a lane without signalling.

Unlike Autosteer, it doesn't steer continuously, it doesn't (attempt to) keep the car centered in a lane, can't handle curves, change lanes, etc.

This demonstrates it pretty well:

 

[mongo]

No audio warning for imminent collision. Camera and AI system fails to pick up and recognize the barrier. Radar system designed to ignore stationary objects (the barrier). Auto braking never kicks in. Quadruple FAIL!!

Poorly painted roar marking that cause AP to operate as designed (even pickup up both sides of gore point near end).
Wheel turned toward barrier when camera is no longer looking out window.
AEB should not have activated. At the time of driver reaction, collision was not unavoidable (baking or steering both valid options).
Model S 6.2 release notes:

Automatic Emergency Braking a new Collision Avoidance Assist feature is designed to automatically engage the brakes to reduce the impact of an unavoidable frontal collision.
Automatic Emergency Braking will stop applying the brakes when you press the accelerator pedal, press the brake pedal, or sharply turn the steering wheel.

 

[ForeverFree]

Car slowly over a period of time misinterprets the lane markings (which I also did watching this video, waiting for the sudden jerk off a cliff). A human driver may have noticed sooner that something wasn't right.

Doesn't look like the car noticed the crash attenuator. I suppose there were a few technological limitations there, most of which I'd assume would be notice by the human operator.

I don't always pay close attention when driving on a long stretch of interstate, but when there are exits, lane changes, etc... I tend to do the work myself.

+1

As a licensed, instrument rated pilot, I have a good sense what low-level autopilot systems are and aren't designed to do.

I don't expect the current level of Tesla's AP to handle exit ramps, road splits, etc. ... at least not without by hyper-heightened vigilance.

At present, it merely picks a lane line and follows it. It has (understandable) trouble differentiating stationary objects in its path (such as this median abutment) from those which appear to be in its path but are not (visualize a bridge or overpass which crosses above a cresting highway ... sure wouldn't want to slam on the brakes for that!).

 

[Haxster]

My opinions on using the term "autopilot" for Teslas:

The challenges to "autopilot" in vehicles is really a whole different ballgame than in aircraft. There's a LOT more to look out for on a road than in free-sky.

After all, there's not much you can collide with when cruising at 30,000 feet. Basically (and simplistically), just keep the plane stable, at altitude, and pointed in the right direction and there's not much danger of hitting another plane or a mountain.

We're all aware of road hazards...way too many to list. It's impressive that Tesla's autopilot works as well as it does. But it's easy to underestimate the edge-cases it may not be able to deal with now...or maybe ever (e.g. a kid runs into the street chasing a ball, a truck runs a red light, or corrupt/erroneous lane markings). And then there's all of the "defensive driving" practices that it still has issues with...like driving in someones blind spot...or slowing down unexpectedly... or driving alongside a large truck or a driver having trouble staying in his lane.

So, "AutoGuide" or something similar might be a more descriptive term for what our Teslas do. I don't think Tesla would ever go for the more fitting terms "RiskyPilot", "DumbPilot" or "DangerousPilot".

 

[ggnykk]

My opinions on using the term "autopilot" for Teslas:

The challenges to "autopilot" in vehicles is really a whole different ballgame than in aircraft. There's a LOT more to look out for on a road than in free-sky.

After all, there's not much you can collide with when cruising at 30,000 feet. Basically (and simplistically), just keep the plane stable, at altitude, and pointed in the right direction and there's not much danger of hitting another plane or a mountain.

We're all aware of road hazards...way too many to list. It's impressive that Tesla's autopilot works as well as it does. But it's easy to underestimate the edge-cases it may not be able to deal with now...or maybe ever (e.g. a kid runs into the street chasing a ball, a truck runs a red light, or corrupt/erroneous lane markings). And then there's all of the "defensive driving" practices that it still has issues with...like driving in someones blind spot...or slowing down unexpectedly... or driving alongside a large truck or a driver having trouble staying in his lane.

So, "AutoGuide" or something similar might be a more descriptive term for what our Teslas do. I don't think Tesla would ever go for the more fitting terms "RiskyPilot", "DumbPilot" or "DangerousPilot".

Tesla should simply call Autopilot "Lane Holding Assist" or something similar. Because vast majority of Autopilot decision making is purely based on where the lane is, and also where the leading vehicle (if any) is going. I think the term "Autopilot" implies way too much intelligence to the system and normal consumer has no idea that it is mostly just a dumb Lane Holding Assist system. The name change would prevent drivers from being too relax and rely too much for the system to drive without paying attention.

 

[rush6410]

Suppose we change the semantics. Suppose we call it Lane Keeping Assist (LKAS) rather than Autopilot (let's set aside the Speed Assist aspect for now). With this semantic change it completely takes on a different and more realistic meaning. It also changes the expectation. Tesla is not the only automaker with LKAS, and any car with LKAS will drive into a gore point barricade just as easily, because we know LKAS is not self-driving. It could happen to any LKAS-equiiped manufacturer. Why is Tesla put on the defensive here and is it natural to assume that Autopilot is self-steering? It is not--it's really just LKAS, a good one. Nissan Leaf will have ProPilot LKAS. BMW/VW/MB have LKAS. Chevy Trucks will have LKAS this year.

Semantics would solve nothing to an owner who purchased AP. It is the owners responsibility to, at a minimum, learn how to safely drive utilizing AP. To do otherwise would simply be irresponsible.

 

[PhantomX]

With "Lane Keep Assist" systems, the driver is still doing all of the steering and the system will only "nudge" the car back towards a lane when it starts crossing over the edge of a lane without signalling.

Unlike Autosteer, it doesn't steer continuously, it doesn't (attempt to) keep the car centered in a lane, can't handle curves, change lanes, etc.

This demonstrates it pretty well:

That's not true. Lane Keep Assist in our Honda Odyssey does does do all the steering, just like what we experienced with our AP1 Model X. It does also have a lane departure migration system that does the small correction you mentioned, but that's a separate system in the car.