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Will the hi amp charger be available for model 3?
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ModelNforNerd
Active Member
diamond.g
Active Member
Can you be specific: how many amps M3 "high amp charger" makes?
1) I know that M3 will be sold worldwide
2) I know what 20-40k EV owners have at their home/apartment (mynissanleaf forum). Many struggle maxing out optional 7kW Leaf charger, some are extremely happy with 120V brick
3) I know that most people are happy with 3kW on a vehicle that uses less energy than Model S per distance. Including me.
4) Lots of people have 3-phase 400V connection. The only way to (easily) get above 16A is to use multiple phases. Including me.
5) I know the average distance traveled and how much energy must be taken on board during the period owner sleeps.
6) Sleep is unavoidable.
7) Tesla dropped 20/22kW dual charger. "Shut up and take my money" doesn't work as we see. It appears 16kW is good enough upgrade for everybody. Even Model X users. Therefore much less needed on smaller EV-s.
US actually has an advantage in terms of available power. 200A 400A main boxes is absolutely unheard of in EU for private houses. US is one of the most power hungry in terms of "energy per household" - therefore lots of amps are available on average.
I'm pretty sure this also applies here:
I'll give a realistic example for a huge chunk of the world: 1 phase apartment with 40A at 230V. 3-phase private home with 3x32A limit though not 96A on neutral, main breaker 63A sum. If Model 3 will be capable handling 400V (between two phases, not phase-vs-neutral) half of the world could actually get more juice, otherwise lots of trippings. Or... Tesla's stationary wall mounted EVSE will monitor main circuit breaker load and act accordingly. Without additional hardware some already use. Reason: 3-phase charging consumes equal amount per phase right now. Phases can be loaded differently. Overload can be tripped on any phase separately. Very hard to monitor that manually. 1-phase connection is easy: you have what you have. Just sum all appliances.
Solution to all of this: being realistic with home charging needs. 70kWh during the night two nights in a row? Less than 5%.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
Can you be specific: how many amps M3 "high amp charger" makes?
1) I know that M3 will be sold worldwide
2) I know what 20-40k EV owners have at their home/apartment (mynissanleaf forum). Many struggle maxing out optional 7kW Leaf charger, some are extremely happy with 120V brick
3) I know that most people are happy with 3kW on a vehicle that uses less energy than Model S per distance. Including me.
4) Lots of people have 3-phase 400V connection. The only way to (easily) get above 16A is to use multiple phases. Including me.
5) I know the average distance traveled and how much energy must be taken on board during the period owner sleeps.
6) Sleep is unavoidable.
7) Tesla dropped 20/22kW dual charger. "Shut up and take my money" doesn't work as we see. It appears 16kW is good enough upgrade for everybody. Even Model X users. Therefore much less needed on smaller EV-s.
US actually has an advantage in terms of available power. 200A 400A main boxes is absolutely unheard of in EU for private houses. US is one of the most power hungry in terms of "energy per household" - therefore lots of amps are available on average.
I'm pretty sure this also applies here:
I'll give a realistic example for a huge chunk of the world: 1 phase apartment with 40A at 230V. 3-phase private home with 3x32A limit though not 96A on neutral, main breaker 63A sum. If Model 3 will be capable handling 400V (between two phases, not phase-vs-neutral) half of the world could actually get more juice, otherwise lots of trippings. Or... Tesla's stationary wall mounted EVSE will monitor main circuit breaker load and act accordingly. Without additional hardware some already use. Reason: 3-phase charging consumes equal amount per phase right now. Phases can be loaded differently. Overload can be tripped on any phase separately. Very hard to monitor that manually. 1-phase connection is easy: you have what you have. Just sum all appliances.
Solution to all of this: being realistic with home charging needs. 70kWh during the night two nights in a row? Less than 5%.
1) Elon said you could charge it worldwide... if I'm in a place that doesn't support a high charge rate then I don't have to use it but I'd still, at minimum, have the option if I found a place that could supply the power.
2) A leaf is lighter than a model S so of course it's more efficient per mile... it's also boring to drive, in comparison, and has a much smaller battery. To charge a leaf battery three times it's size in the same amount of time would take three times the power.
3) see #2.
4) lots of people can hire an electrician to wire up what they need to charge an EV such as for a Tesla wall connector. I'm not sure I understand your point. There's no reason home and destination "chargers" can't deliver decent power rates to the internal charger.
5) I see you've never traveled. You'd have to charge while you're awake and waiting for it. If you're outside the range of a DC station then you need a fast onboard charger. I keep seeing this charge while you're sleeping argument and it never holds water.
6) Are you going to sleep in the middle of a road trip when you've only driven 215-300 miles?
7) The dual chargers was just that dual chargers. As far as I know the newer 16.5 kW charger is a single unit. That isn't about less power as much as reducing complexity and cost.
What's the point of the Tesla wall connector if you can't use the power?
Are destination chargers going to be overly crowded because people need to park there longer to charge?
It's not necessarily about needing 70+ kWh on two consecutive nights... what if you come home from a trip, plug in your car, and a half hour later you get an emergency call? It's not like you can stop and get gas. What if, like previously mentioned, you're simply on a road trip and there are no superchargers in sight? A person can easily go 600 miles in a day. What if it's a fleet vehicle and you have a taxi service?
If you are in a hurry and you have the option to charge faster, why wouldn't you? The growing trend is that we are seeing charging stations with more power not less. There are still places without DC fast charging. Your argument that people simply won't need to charge quickly or will be happy with what they've got is not realistic.
In the end it's going to boil down purely to cost and ease of manufacturing. We still don't know what we're going to see. According to Elon at the Model 3 launch you should be able to take the same Model 3 anywhere in the world and charge it unlike the Model S/X because the onboard charger is supposed to adapt to whatever's available (supposedly).
Look at the topic of this thread. We are talking about Model 3.
You can wire whatever you want, but the main breaker is sealed - you can have as many amps as in the contract with the grid provider. From some point getting more amps means paying extra for being a demanding customer (amp fee). For me it is 63A limit. For other countries it might be 40 or 80. You can't have 500Amps at will* (maybe in US). Transformers are not unlimited.
No. If there is no DC I will not be a waypoint. Luckily it is hard to find a spot without DC (at least 50kW) nowadays. And it will only get better. It's weird that in US Level2 is considered as a place to charge the vehicle during the trip (except destination). It is not where the wind of change is blowing. It might have been years ago when EV's had like 15-25kWh battery pack.
Destination is the point you arrive to. It can be home, it can be hotel. You don't go there to wait for a charge.
I'm going to wait no more than 40 minutes in any situation. Whatever the onboard charger, that is way too little, be it 3, 6, 10, 16 or 20kW. Like I said, decent is from 0% to 100% within the night.
Yes it is single unit. As far as I know, Tesla does not offer anybody dual 16,5kW charger. Guess why. There are plenty of "shut up and take my money" customers.
You either wait for charge or you don't.
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JeffK
Well-Known Member
I know right? Yet you said
Many hotels have time limits for parking at a destination charger so you'd be waiting anyway or risk getting towed and second, if it happens to be a waypoint, then even 40 min at 16.5 kW will yield a greater charge than 40 min at a lower power thus proving it's better to charge faster because you're imposing a time limit.
BTW are you the same Arnis that Bjørn Nyland just called out for BS on youtube in the comments section of his Driving Model X 200 kph/125 mph for over 100 km/60 mi video? ...because that was hilarious.
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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Now that the argument is descended into a dog fight over what a 'destination' charger is, allow me a tangent:
It seems fairly clear that as charging infra-structure improves, less expensive EVs with smaller batteries will cross the threshold into pan-functional cars. I like the idea of 5-10 minute breaks every two hours on an extended drive, and that would require somewhere in the range of 150 - 200 miles new battery capacity (excluding heating requirements.)
Which really points out just how prescient Elon et al were when planning out the SC network. It also probably means that the march to ever increasing battery range is a niche product in the future. The day when an EV is no more expensive than a Corolla just does not seem that far away.
It seems fairly clear that as charging infra-structure improves, less expensive EVs with smaller batteries will cross the threshold into pan-functional cars. I like the idea of 5-10 minute breaks every two hours on an extended drive, and that would require somewhere in the range of 150 - 200 miles new battery capacity (excluding heating requirements.)
Which really points out just how prescient Elon et al were when planning out the SC network. It also probably means that the march to ever increasing battery range is a niche product in the future. The day when an EV is no more expensive than a Corolla just does not seem that far away.
Not necessarily, but I'm sure as hell not going to sit around waiting for a Level 2 charge, even if it is 50% faster than the standard charger.
If a trip requires doing a level 2 charge in the middle of the day, I'm not driving an EV, full stop.
Da f*** are you talking about. Any sources? Tesla knows that? Destination charger doesn't "happen" to be a waypoint for 40 minutes. Only if you want to "get some free juice". So practically you just described a way to exploit destination charger. Similar to what happened to SC network due to "unlimited everything". And also if you get towed at D charger due to "was not waiting" just contact Tesla. This is not how Tesla agrees to install free D chargers. Common sense tells me that one can use Dcharger for free IF one uses the services wherever Dcharger is. And that business (hotel for example) pays for the juice.
You can now enjoy being hilarious at Dchargers - waiting in car with 16kW charger because you don't actually want to pay for service nor pay for parking nor pay for juice.
timk225
Active Member
Even if most L2 chargers cannot max them out, or even come close yet, we need to have high capacity chargers in our Teslas because.... 'MERICA !!!
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