I believe most consider anything at 240V as Level 2
If you're looking for a "Level 1.5", I'd say it is a 30 amp TT-30 ("30 amp" RV outlet). At 120V/24A, that's 2.9 KW, almost the same as 240v/16 amps for 3.3 KW.
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Installing a level 3 charger at home
- Thread starter hunnypuppy
- Start date
If you're looking for a "Level 1.5", I'd say it is a 30 amp TT-30 ("30 amp" RV outlet). At 120V/24A, that's 2.9 KW, almost the same as 240v/16 amps for 3.3 KW.
That seems like really badly reading the room. I don't see any responses that look like that. I and it seems most other people responding are along the lines of:
It seems that the OP wants more is better (nothing wrong there), but incorrectly assumes it would only cost a few thousand dollars, when that's usually at least one order of magnitude lower than what it would really cost.
We don't know what the OP was trying to achieve. He seems to have run away. All we know is that he said L3. We don't know if he even knew what that meant.
So IIUC level 3 (L3) 3-phase chargers probably use 3x phase-to-phase voltage 480V (and not 3x phase-to-ground 277V). So connecting 1-phase wire 3 times will not work as there is 0V phase-to-phase difference.
I am solving that as when I live in the Philippines (like now) there is only 1-phase 230V here. Which would be OK for the USA Tesla L2 car+charger 1-phase 48A but the USA Tesla is difficult to import for me as I am not a USA citizen. It is easier for me to import Tesla from Europe but then its L2 charger is 3-phase and it will charge just 3.6kW (230Vx16A) 1-phase in the Philippines. In fact, the L2 charger is pointless in such a case as I can just plug it into the AC outlet with the L1/mobile charger (230Vx15A).
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
Yes, I would expect 3 phase L3 chargers in the US to accept 440 V minimum to 480 V max and expect 460 V nominal.
I would not expect them to bother with 277V setups since those are so close to the 240V it wouldn't be worth the complexity for the tiny bump in voltage.
277V is useful for some equipment that doesn't need the higher overall power levels, I'm just saying with L3 chargers the more power you can give it the better.
I would not expect them to bother with 277V setups since those are so close to the 240V it wouldn't be worth the complexity for the tiny bump in voltage.
277V is useful for some equipment that doesn't need the higher overall power levels, I'm just saying with L3 chargers the more power you can give it the better.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
It seems obvious OP doesn’t really know what they’re asking for and is probably never coming back, but I can actually see a market emerging for say 25-50kw residential DC charging solutions, particularly given the American infatuation with gargantuan inefficient bro-dozers like the Hummer EV and Cybertruck.
Indeed they already exist:
25kw, takes everything from single phase 240 to 3-phase 480.
Basically, let the people who “need” charging faster than ~11kw do it this way instead of stuffing a bunch of expensive charging equipment in the car itself.
Indeed they already exist:
Delta EV Wallbox Level 3 DC Quick Charger Charging Station
This level 3 DC fast charger, with SAECombo connector, is the perfect low-cost solution for high-powered fast charging. The Delta Wallbox delivers 25kW of power and starts at less than half the cost of competitors' units.
www.evchargesolutions.com
25kw, takes everything from single phase 240 to 3-phase 480.
Basically, let the people who “need” charging faster than ~11kw do it this way instead of stuffing a bunch of expensive charging equipment in the car itself.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
To be clear it's 3 separate 25kw products (pick 1 power input type), you can't just buy a single product from that page that takes everything from single phase 240 to 3-phase 480.It seems obvious OP doesn’t really know what they’re asking for and is probably never coming back, but I can actually see a market emerging for say 25-50kw residential DC charging solutions, particularly given the American infatuation with gargantuan inefficient bro-dozers like the Hummer EV and Cybertruck.
Indeed they already exist:
Delta EV Wallbox Level 3 DC Quick Charger Charging Station
This level 3 DC fast charger, with SAECombo connector, is the perfect low-cost solution for high-powered fast charging. The Delta Wallbox delivers 25kW of power and starts at less than half the cost of competitors' units.www.evchargesolutions.com
25kw, takes everything from single phase 240 to 3-phase 480.
Basically, let the people who “need” charging faster than ~11kw do it this way instead of stuffing a bunch of expensive charging equipment in the car itself.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Yes, sorry if that was confusing. Didn’t mean to imply that one box could take all three.
https://www.evolutionaustralia.com.au/product-page/delta-dc-fast-charger-wallbox - 25kW for USD 10130.Delta EV Wallbox Level 3 DC Quick Charger Charging Station
This level 3 DC fast charger, with SAECombo connector, is the perfect low-cost solution for high-powered fast charging. The Delta Wallbox delivers 25kW of power and starts at less than half the cost of competitors' units.www.evchargesolutions.com
arvindm
Member
If you are talking about installing a Tesla home charger hard wired to the grid, it is possible. You have to have a breaker free at minimum 60 amps capacity and hardwire the charger which will be able to draw a max of 48 amps. That will probably be the maximum you can do under your current limitation without spending a fortune. The cheapest solution would be to install a NEMA 15-50 outlet and use your mobile charger which will draw a maximum of 32 amps and plenty for charging from 20-80% within 6-7 hours. I charge mine once every 10 days or so and it takes about 6-7 hours to o from 20-80 % and little longer if you want to charge all the way to 100%.
The second question is simple arithmetic (and an efficiency assumption). 220V times 400A is 88kW. Assuming ~10% power conversion losses, supercharging at ~80kW would use all 400 amps of your incoming service. You can scale down from there to answer 'how many amps' for lower charging rates.
Setting aside why someone might think they need such high charging rates at home, the way I can see this being done without a ton of cost is if someone already has (or plans) a large whole-house battery backup. Say a 100kWh LFP battery pack (500V times 200Ah). Yes that is in the neighborhood of $20K in LFP cells alone, and yes 500V is higher than what you would typically use for a whole-house battery backup. That voltage was chosen to be higher than what the car would use, allowing the connection from the battery to the car to be effectively a current-controlled step-down DC-to-DC converter (admittedly a very high-power one). It has to handshake with the car of course, through a NACS connector. You could realistically achieve close to 100kW charging rates from such a setup. Unsure what the cost of those power electronics would be between the battery and car though.
Yes there is still high cost in this overall system (over $20K for the whole-house battery). But the battery has other uses (powering the house during power outages). And you can go smaller on the battery size/cost if you don't need/want that much charging rate. And this approach sidesteps all concerns about incoming grid power levels, panel/breaker sizes, etc. Those just limit how quickly the big battery can be replenished after drawing it down. And yes, there will be constant small power draw keeping such a large battery topped up (to the extent that you're always charging it).
We know the power electronics I refer to exist (and are not crazy expensive) because that's what's on (for example) the Sparkcharge Roadie I mentioned earlier. It's just for CCS instead of NACS.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
There is no official definition of "level 1.5" so I use it to mean charging somewhere between the typical ratings of Level 1 (<2kW) and the typical ratings of level 2 (>5kW.) Of course the actual levels depend on voltage, so TT-30 is technically Level 1, and 240v 15a is technically level 2, but what people actually care about is wattage, and so I have given the mid-range of wattages the name level 1.5.
And while TT-30 are found in homes sometimes (usually RV owners) they require 10AWG wiring and a dedicated circuit, so if you had one, and you wanted to plug a car into it instead of an RV, you would be well motivated to switch it out for 240v 30a Level 2, which would not cost you much to do.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
A few responses, including mine, are of the "you probably don't want to actually do that." And indeed, it's pretty hard to come up with a reason why somebody would actually need level 3 in a residential home. I would be interested if people can come up with many. People with large-battery cars tend to have things like 12kW level 2 internal chargers which can recharge a 100kWh car overnight. So you would have to be needing to drive more than 250 miles per day, and be doing it near your house, so that you put in >200 miles, then come home, and have to go out and do another 100 miles soon.
The main applications I have for that are not purely residential, they involve a business.
- Your family drives Ubers, and you do shifts in your Model X. So one person goes out and does a full shift in the car, then comes home, and it needs to charge quickly for the person doing the evening shift.
- You run a delivery business that involves driving >200 miles/day on a large fraction of the days, but it is all near your house.
Does level 3 mean any DC charging or just DC fast charging?
I would look at a <10kW DC that used DC (solar) input. My thinking is that there would only be a loss at the dc-dc converter as opposed to the rectifier and dc-dc conv. the car uses to charge on AC.
Not saying I’d buy one but I’d consider it.
I would look at a <10kW DC that used DC (solar) input. My thinking is that there would only be a loss at the dc-dc converter as opposed to the rectifier and dc-dc conv. the car uses to charge on AC.
Not saying I’d buy one but I’d consider it.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
There’s actually no such thing as Level 3 DC charging as defined by SAE. Colloquially it’s come to mean “DC fast charging” but again, there’s no real definition of the term.
Per SAE, a hypothetical 10kw DC charger would be “DC Level 1”.
Level 3 Is A Perfectly Legitimate Term For DC Fast Charging - CleanTechnica
Obviously, DC fast charging exists, and many people call that Level 3, so why are they saying it's not real??
cleantechnica.com
Regarding the rest of your post, I’ve long thought a Powerwall with an integrated solar inverter and NACS DC charger would be a cool piece of kit (though the placement challenges of such a device would likely render it infeasible for many people).
arvindm
Member
Yah! Level 3 charging exists mostly at superchargers. Home level 3 charging is way too expensive. You might as well buy another Tesla for that price!There’s actually no such thing as Level 3 DC charging as defined by SAE. Colloquially it’s come to mean “DC fast charging” but again, there’s no real definition of the term.
Per SAE, a hypothetical 10kw DC charger would be “DC Level 1”.
Level 3 Is A Perfectly Legitimate Term For DC Fast Charging - CleanTechnica
Obviously, DC fast charging exists, and many people call that Level 3, so why are they saying it's not real??
Regarding the rest of your post, I’ve long thought a Powerwall with an integrated solar inverter and NACS DC charger would be a cool piece of kit (though the placement challenges of such a device would likely render it infeasible for many people).
Yes. For most people, installing any sort of L3 charging would require upgrading their entire electrical service (or installing an additional one). This alone would run thousands of dollars. Unless you are running a fleet of robotaxis, it's hardly feasible.
That's the piece of kit that is about that price. It is a large battery bank on wheels that can slowly charge at home while you are out driving. Then, when you need to access that battery bank to refill your car really fast, (like faster than level 3 speeds) you simply get into the battery bank and drive it away!
bradtem
Robocar consultant
Would it actually be safe to charge by just connecting a 400v battery directly to your battery, without any circuits to regulate voltage to keep current in check? Or could you do it with something cheap enough to make it worthwhile? A grid powered DC Fast charger is in communication with the car about the state of its battery, and controlling its voltage to limit total current, and circuits that can regulate voltage at these power levels need to be pretty robust.
Though as I challenged up-thread, it's very hard to come up with reason why you would ever need DC Fast in your home. I suspect you would need to be running an unusual type of business from the home. The other main reason you might need it would be if you forgot to charge the night before and you wake up to an empty battery and there are no public fast chargers near your home. While that's scary, there are other ways to prevent that, such as a simple monitor that alerts you if your car is not plugged in or has a charging problem. While you might not like being woken up, if it saves you $10,000 I suspect you might be OK with it.
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