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Will the second row seats fold flat? If so, how?

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I owned two different Suburbans across 15 years. The number of times I had to fold the second row in that 15 years was three - I used it for the maintenance of my orchard and did not have an alternative vehicle that prevented it. The number of times I had to fold and/or remove the third row seat was far greater. The passenger hauling was far more important.

I realize there are some people who were hoping that the Model X would be their combination passenger van and cargo van, but it didn't pan out from an engineering perspective and it seems they had to make tough decisions with the trade-offs.
 
I posted some links earlier related to Elon stating that a "removable second row" would make the X an "expensive delivery van." However, I'm not sure how long it will be before moderator approval...

So, now that I've watched the video, I can verify that it was at the February 2014 Q&A in Oslo. If you search Youtube for Bjorn Nyland's video titled "Elon Musk in Oslo 01.02.2014", the important part is around the 24 minute mark.

Basically, somebody asked about removable seats, and his response was that the 3rd row would be optional and removable, and they would think about making the second row removable...it would be a cool, but very expensive delivery van.

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...and I found a transcipt here:

Elon and JB speak in Oslo Feb 1st 2014 1000 CET (4AM EST) - Page 4

see Q11
 
I realize there are some people who were hoping that the Model X would be their combination passenger van and cargo van, but it didn't pan out from an engineering perspective and it seems they had to make tough decisions with the trade-offs.
That is one tough trade-off. About on par with dropping the 3rd row seating.

I don't think this is a deal breaker for everyone, but it wouldn't at all suprise me if 25% of reservation holders would cancel over this issue. Probably more than that here in Norway. Here, the target market is the middle class, and these sorts of "features" just won't fly.
 
Steve jobs also snarkily dismissed MMS.

Sheesh. First time my mother used DropBox, it was for audio and video from her team members, on her Apple products. Not saying this is texting, but Steve Jobs sounds like Bill Gates & the Internet. Sounds like Elon Musk is following in the footsteps of some very rich men of some very rich companies that were completely wrong about some really big things. I would not be at all surprised that a company that is helping us to save the world from pollution, human extinction, and lesser things like oil wars and lack of peace in the middle east, is simultaneously dumb enough not to do something like allow some of its earliest utility vehicle owners have utility. Some people are just like that. *shrug*

My guess is Tesla/leadership looked at the market segment of comparable ICE vehicles and focus grouped it and stuff like that, and came to the conclusion they would be in the same market segment and left it at that, but I hadn't considered the safety issue of attaching the seats more solidly to the body. My very uninformed opinion is that the buyers of X will on AVERAGE rarely use it to transport big stuff, but would LIKE to be able to IF THEY WANTED TO, and WOULD on occasion. Whether or not this ends up being a big deal I can't guess as intuitively as I do most things, because $100,000 for a CUV is a bit of extra money for stuff that might make people afraid to scuff and ding it by utilitarian use, but that first set of X buyers is looking at a different reason to buy than the ugly gross ICE vehicle options out there: that is, they want to at the same time get a vehicle that is utilitarian in the ecological, moral & political sense, and since there are limited options, also want utility in their medium & big stuff transport situation. If I were very well to do financially, I think I'd be in that last theoretical group, which it turns out at least on this forum seems to have some realness to it. And finally, just from a practical standpoint, some financially well to do people might at some point find themselves with a massively depreciated vehicle they still like and want to use but their financial position may be quite a bit less (or even unfantastically the same) in the future and they may end up wanting to use that vehicle for a wider variety of tasks during its more "run down" part of life, and it would fit them just fine 10 years down the line, rather than go out and get a variety of vehicles to fill their garage with that they have to constantly be updating and relearning and having new types of accidents in because they didn't know their many new vehicles that well. Come to think of it, that's a fine reason to do so even while it's brand new and the owners are still very vital and well off.

The reason may be much simpler than all that, staring me in the face: my very well to do boss with his ever-latest Jaguar at one place I worked didn't like my excuse of "my vehicle isn't able to transport that" when I had to do my usual hardware store run but was down a vehicle one day, and so he borrowed his wife's car, which as it happened, was a fancy Range Rover, and loaded it up to the brim and got everything to me to install. In other words, well to do people probably like being ABLE to use a Trump card for stuff whether or not they actually plan to DO so all the time.
 
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Frankly, at $80-100K min, I can't afford to have another car, so this one would have to be able to do everything.
unfortunately I don't have a stable full of Bentleys or Land Rovers, or even Tahoes, and I'd like to not buy any more petroleum too.
No folding of 2nd row seats means I'd be driving 4 empty seats around 99% of the time.
No folding flat = switch to S85D or S90D for me.
 
I'm not arguing that folding seats aren't practical and useable for people, but I will argue your view that the 'general public' needs/owns a 100k+ SUV. The 'general public' owns a van (if they have kids) or pick up truck for those kinds of cargo needs.

More accurately your statement should be a 'segment' of the premium SUV market needs folding seats for their cargo hauling needs. :wink:

I agree, the question is how many X buyers weren't in the market for a $100k SUV, but if they want an EV SUV they have to pay that premium as the choice is one.

I suspect like the S there will be a fair number of owners that had to stretch there budget a fair bit to get an X, and for those it isn't a cross sell between a loaded SUV, but rather a practical family hauler ICE.

Certainly interesting to see how this goes, especially if the standard car doesn't have foldable seats.
 
I'm not arguing that folding seats aren't practical and useable for people, but I will argue your view that the 'general public' needs/owns a 100k+ SUV. The 'general public' owns a van (if they have kids) or pick up truck for those kinds of cargo needs.

More accurately your statement should be a 'segment' of the premium SUV market needs folding seats for their cargo hauling needs. :wink:

A bit of wider perspective, though:

Due to lack of taxation (and lack of luxury features ;) ), Model S and Model X are actually upper middle class cars in many parts of Europe, like the ever-important Norway. Does someone really think, as well off as Norway is, they would really have such a market for high-end cars? Tesla's relative price on the market is actually fairly affordable, more in the realms of your average middle manager than the CEO.

So not all Model X owners clearly come from that high-end car background - and not even in the U.S. judging by these forums! A lot of people seem to "buy up" (or even way up) to get this kind of a BEV, seeing we have people driving Model S that used to drive a Prius, or people thinking of upgrading very regular-brand SUVs to the Model X. The guy from a Porsche, let alone Bentley seems almost minority.

I'm not personally coming from upper middle class cars to Tesla, but above - hence my dislike for lack of luxury rear features, because I miss them (just not enough) - but I know many are and for them folding second row is par the normal course. Even high-end SUVs usually fold seats, let alone regular SUVs which definitely do.

Personally, I can live without a folding second row, as my daily driver before Model S didn't fold its rear seats at all (although those seats did pretty much everything else) considering they were full of first/business class seating like electronics. I would prefer to do it because the second row makes up for it somehow (some premium feature that precludes folding), though, not just because Tesla was late getting the folding seats done.

But it seems that high-end buyer may not be your average active poster here, despite the price of these cars. I fear Tesla may have an issue in their hands with this market if fully folding rear really is delayed.

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I agree, the question is how many X buyers weren't in the market for a $100k SUV, but if they want an EV SUV they have to pay that premium as the choice is one.

I suspect like the S there will be a fair number of owners that had to stretch there budget a fair bit to get an X, and for those it isn't a cross sell between a loaded SUV, but rather a practical family hauler ICE.

Certainly interesting to see how this goes, especially if the standard car doesn't have foldable seats.

Exactly.

Though, lets not forget, even direct Model X competition - size and price-wise I mean - like Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne, BMW X5 and Mercedes Benz GL *all* fold their second rows for a fully flat rear! Tesla even themselves said Audi Q7 was an inspiration of sorts.

Hence I expect Model X will eventually fold the second row too. The question is: How soon or how late? And what does that mean for the current buyer?
 
We are obviously on the same page AR.

One thing I was disappointed in was the interior seemed near identical to the S, it worries me from a cross shopping POV.

My wife has a Q7 and in the premium space (if you were cross shopping against your list), the interior of these premium SUVs is streets ahead of the S, it's not just the toys but an air of quality the S doesn't quite pull off. It's really hard to put my finger on exactly what this is though :(
 
I don't think this is a deal breaker for everyone, but it wouldn't at all suprise me if 25% of reservation holders would cancel over this issue. Probably more than that here in Norway. Here, the target market is the middle class, and these sorts of "features" just won't fly.

I suspect it's far less than 25%. I have no data to support that conclusion, only anecdotal information associated with my own use and the few times I've hung around home improvement stores that lets me draw wild conclusions about how many people try to stuff 30 sheets of plywood in a soccer mom vehicle compared with hauling the kids and their stuff around. I'm sure Tesla does have some type of data and I trust/guarantee they're not going outside and saying "well, s**t, J.B., the seats didn't work, wanna flip a coin to determine ugly seats/cargo van vs. elegant seats/people?"
 
@FlasherZ Is this a EU/US difference of opinion starting to shine through?

IOW is the EU/US exec space more similar, to the EU/US SUV one?

US Exec saloons often compared on here are very similar to EU ones. In the EU we simply don't get a load of the SUVs you guys are comparing the X against.

I suspect if Tesla had done a wagon version of the S, it would have sold really well here (and been much cheaper to engineer), but probably not sold at all well in the US. I wonder how many EU guys if offered a 4x4 Wagon Model S, with exactly the same folding as the current car, and a small towing capacity, would have found their perfect car?
 
I suspect it's far less than 25%. I have no data to support that conclusion, only anecdotal information associated with my own use and the few times I've hung around home improvement stores that lets me draw wild conclusions about how many people try to stuff 30 sheets of plywood in a soccer mom vehicle compared with hauling the kids and their stuff around. I'm sure Tesla does have some type of data and I trust/guarantee they're not going outside and saying "well, s**t, J.B., the seats didn't work, wanna flip a coin to determine ugly seats/cargo van vs. elegant seats/people?"
The seats wouldn't have to be "ugly", just stick the Model S seats in there when the 3rd row seating isn't included. For me, it would be an easy choice between 3rd row seats and folding 2nd row seats.

Maybe non-folding 2nd row seats will be okay in the US. It is certainly a different market than Norway. What I can say is that non-folding 2nd row seats won't be well recieved in Norway. Exactly how poorly it will be received remains to be seen, but 25% cancellation rate may be conservative.
 
I suspect it's far less than 25%. I have no data to support that conclusion, only anecdotal information associated with my own use and the few times I've hung around home improvement stores that lets me draw wild conclusions about how many people try to stuff 30 sheets of plywood in a soccer mom vehicle compared with hauling the kids and their stuff around. I'm sure Tesla does have some type of data and I trust/guarantee they're not going outside and saying "well, s**t, J.B., the seats didn't work, wanna flip a coin to determine ugly seats/cargo van vs. elegant seats/people?"

When I buy 30 sheets of plywood, drywall, siding, etc. I will either rent the truck by the hour or have my purchases delivered. When I need ONE sheet of plywood, siding, drywall, or find an amazing deal on a 65 inch TV I like being able to fold down the back seats and take things home right then. This is the U in SUV/CUV.

I don't want to have to rent a truck for $20 to bring home a $12 sheet of drywall.
 
How much would you pay for the 3rd row seat?

26% who answered this poll say they won't buy the 3rd row seats, another 48% wouldn't pay more than 3000 USD. I think there will be a substantial overlap between those who don't want the 3rd row seats and those who want folding 2nd row seats. Why would they be buying the Model X, if it's not for the space and not for the people carrying capacity?
 
I don't want to have to rent a truck for $20 to bring home a $12 sheet of drywall.

Even if the seats did fold flat, there's no guarantee an 8x4 sheet would fit :( I'm pretty sure I couldn't fit an 8x4 sheet in the Q7, even with it's folding seats..

AFAIK the only thing short of a commercial van in the EU that can do this is a Chrysler Grand Voyager (if you want to close the tailgate). With the Q7 you have the option of the roof rack at a push.

Even with my old beater Kia MPV, I have to stand them up on edge to clear the suspension turrets / wheel wells, then drive with the tailgate open :(
 
How much would you pay for the 3rd row seat?

26% who answered this poll say they won't buy the 3rd row seats, another 48% wouldn't pay more than 3000 USD. I think there will be a substantial overlap between those who don't want the 3rd row seats and those who want folding 2nd row seats. Why would they be buying the Model X, if it's not for the space and not for the people carrying capacity?

The honest answer must include an element of fashion / status symbol.

The doors are definitely a nod to both these aspects.
 
Even if the seats did fold flat, there's no guarantee an 8x4 sheet would fit :( I'm pretty sure I couldn't fit an 8x4 sheet in the Q7, even with it's folding seats..

AFAIK the only thing short of a commercial van in the EU that can do this is a Chrysler Grand Voyager (if you want to close the tailgate). With the Q7 you have the option of the roof rack at a push.

Even with my old beater Kia MPV, I have to stand them up on edge to clear the suspension turrets / wheel wells, then drive with the tailgate open :(
8x4 sheet is probably not the best example. In the past year I've carried couches, tables, desks, tall cabinets, garden furniture, doors, parquet flooring, garbage, lawn movers, etc.
 
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