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Winter Driving Experiences

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Weight

I don't know about this explanation. Generally what people do to get better traction is add weight to a car such as a few hundred pounds of sand over the rear wheels. The physics is that the force is a function of the coefficient of friction times the weight, so more weight gives more force. If there really were so little friction that the car couldn't move uphill at all, it would slide downhill when stopped, a very scary situation I've been in and do not recommend. My guess is that the TC isn't set up to allow the wheels to spin together to some extent to get the car to slowly move forward. As others have said, it may well be possible for Tesla to come up with a Snow Mode for the TC and throttle control. It is all drive by wire after all.
This depends on if you are on a steep incline or on a flat road. On a flat road the added weight puts downward pressure on the wheel and increases traction. On a steep incline the added weight does this to some extent but it also increases the force needed to get the car moving forward. Where you put the weight is important too. If you have a front wheel drive car and throw sand bags in the trunk you will have a harder time getting up a steep hill even though you added weight. Software should be able to fix the power delivery problem, if it is a problem, but not the differential. My guess is # for # it's no worse than other large rear wheel drive luxury cars. I wonder if you could rig a braking system to brake the wheel without traction thus sending more power to the wheel with traction?
 
This depends on if you are on a steep incline or on a flat road. On a flat road the added weight puts downward pressure on the wheel and increases traction. On a steep incline the added weight does this to some extent but it also increases the force needed to get the car moving forward. Where you put the weight is important too. If you have a front wheel drive car and throw sand bags in the trunk you will have a harder time getting up a steep hill even though you added weight. Software should be able to fix the power delivery problem, if it is a problem, but not the differential. My guess is # for # it's no worse than other large rear wheel drive luxury cars. I wonder if you could rig a braking system to brake the wheel without traction thus sending more power to the wheel with traction?
I don't think anyone is talking about front wheel drive cars here, are we?

WRT the component of the weight acting to the rear on a steep incline - On a 10% grade, which is a very steep hill, it's only 10%, so 500 lbs adds 50 lbs pointing to the back, but 497 lbs perpendicular to the surface, about 21% increase in force.

If you are thinking about the additional mass of the car due to the sand, that will just decrease the acceleration by about 10% irrespective of the slope of the hill.

Except for limited slip differentials, the way traction control systems work is by braking the slipping wheel so torque is applied to the gripping wheel.

It seems to me that the question WRT the Tesla, which has a computerized throttle, is if it modulates the maximum rotational speed of the wheels to minimize slip and how low it can go. An ICE has a minimum rpm it will run at, but I believe the Tesla motor can run at very low rpm so potentially it could be programmed to run at the optimized spin rate to achieve maximum thrust with the brakes ensuring the two wheels are running at the same speed. That is very difficult for a human driver to do, but seems like something a computer could do fairly easily.
 
In the Roadster you have to manually turn the AC on to use it with defrost. And you have to do that often if it's humid. I like it that way - more choices. I hate cars that automatically turn the AC on with defrost.

Most cars will turn on the a/c with defrost by default, but usually, you can disable the a/c by hitting the a/c button. I often will run my system in "Auto", but hit the a/c button to disable the compressor on nice days. Everything else works "automatically", but the a/c compressor won't come on. I like having the choices too.
 
Stability control works by modulating the brakes on different wheels. So I expect they can balance the open differential using that system.

Doug, I agree (and have owned cars which used that strategy as part of the traction control system).

I live north of Toronto, where we get more snow and colder weather than the city, so I have been following this thread with great interest. We also have a significant hill which is often unplowed when I have to drive to work. I have had the Model S out a few times in snow and have not, to date, been able to replicate the problems reported by some of the contributors to this thread.

Unless a car is hanging up on the snow (which should be less of an issue for the Model S, due to its adjustable air struts) traction in snow is a relatively simple engineering problem to model and address. The principal variables are the friction and the snow moving characteristics of the tires, the width of the tires, the balance of the vehicle weight between the driven and non-driven wheels, and the characteristics of the power delivery system (the mapping of the traction control, ability to modulate torque at the limits of adhesion, limited slip functionality, etc.). Over the years I have owned and driven a wide variety of vehicles in the snow on our hill. These have included high powered rear wheel drive vehicles (e.g., SS Camaros) which were intrinsically much worse that the Model S in snow due to low (and non-adjustable) ground clearance, and minimal weight on the rear wheels, but could work very well in the snow with the aid of a couple of hundred pounds of weight behind the axle (thereby giving them a weight balance roughly similar to that of the Model S) and some skill with the clutch and throttle. I have found that different strategies are required depending on the snow condition and underlying road surface. In most cases you want to be able to continually push the tires right up to and slightly beyond the limits of adhesion (but without generating excessive wheelspin) - limited torque, with good modulation through the accelerator, combined with modulated braking to limit the slip, as Doug sugested, would work well in these conditions. In other cases, spinning the wheels to get down through a fresh snow cover to sand covered pavement is the better strategy - traction control off, except for some use of modulated braking to ensure that both wheels are driving, works better in these cases. Both modes, and possibly others, could relatively easily be implemented through software on the Model S. The level of regen should also be dialed down in the "snow mode" configurations.

As discussed above, tires are the other important variable. While I haven't yet had any of the problems that others have reported, I was surprised to find that the Model S' winter tires were the same 245 width as the summer tires. For rear wheel drive cars, I have typically selected winter tires that are at least 20mm narrower than the performance summer tires used by that car. The wider the tires, the more work that will be required to push the non-driving front tires over and through the snow. I wonder if the use of slightly narrower tires might help to address some of the issues reported in thread (including high energy consumption in snow)? In this regard I note that Tire Rack offers a couple of 235/50R19 winter tires for the Model S, in addition to the 245/45R19 size. While a narrower tire may well involve some compromises in handling and/or wear, better performance in snow may be worth it to those in snowy areas.

Bottom line, it should be possible, with relatively modest changes to the programming (and perhaps the selection of some different tires) to make the Tesla a very capable car in the snow, and a lot better than most other rear wheel drive cars (due to it rear weight bias, adjustable height and fully programable power delivery controls).

I haven't encounter any fogging up or icing up problems, but usually drive the car solo and have pre-heated the interior (while on charge) which together with a high fan speed bringing in outside air likely helps to avoid such problems. The energy consumption on the road is also significantly higher in winter (which I had expected from my experience with Prius'). When I tried to minimize energy consumption, driving about 80 km/hr in range mode, I managed to get the consumption down to about 200 W/hr per km, but after 40 or 50 km I received a cold battery pack warning, even though the outside air temperature was only a few degrees below freezing and the battery still had close to 300 km of range left? Does anyone know the implications of that warming? I arrived home shortly after receiving the warning, put the car on charge and all seems to be fine, but the warning seemed to be a cause for some concern (especially in view of the relatively warm temperature and short duration of the trip).
 
As discussed above, tires are the other important variable. While I haven't yet had any of the problems that others have reported, I was surprised to find that the Model S' winter tires were the same 245 width as the summer tires. For rear wheel drive cars, I have typically selected winter tires that are at least 20mm narrower than the performance summer tires used by that car. The wider the tires, the more work that will be required to push the non-driving front tires over and through the snow. I wonder if the use of slightly narrower tires might help to address some of the issues reported in thread (including high energy consumption in snow)? In this regard I note that Tire Rack offers a couple of 235/50R19 winter tires for the Model S, in addition to the 245/45R19 size. While a narrower tire may well involve some compromises in handling and/or wear, better performance in snow may be worth it to those in snowy areas.

+1 for narrower tires, and better tires than Pirelli.

...When I tried to minimize energy consumption, driving about 80 km/hr in range mode, I managed to get the consumption down to about 200 W/hr per km, but after 40 or 50 km I received a cold battery pack warning, even though the outside air temperature was only a few degrees below freezing and the battery still had close to 300 km of range left? Does anyone know the implications of that warming? I arrived home shortly after receiving the warning, put the car on charge and all seems to be fine, but the warning seemed to be a cause for some concern (especially in view of the relatively warm temperature and short duration of the trip).

Perhaps driving this carefully doesn't generate enough heat in the battery it self to keep temperature up, seeing how the whole underside of the pack is exposed to the ambient air. While driving at 80 km/h you might also get quite som drag of cold air under the car, which chills the battery further?
 
There is no question that the 19" and 21" are both very poor starting points for winter tires. Ideally you want an 80% aspect-ratio tire for winter driving--not 35% or 45%. Unfortunately, the brake size limits the tire aspect ratio, and the public has been sold the idea that low profile tires are better, when in reality they only give better cornering force on dry pavement. Inboard brakes would have solved the aspect ratio problem because the wheel diameter wouldn't be constrained. However, it's way too late for a mechanical solution like that so it's hoped that the electronics will be tweaked (I have no doubt it's technically possible to tweak the electronics to make the car good in winter if proper winter tires are mounted). I'm really interested in how much improvement the Hakkapeliitta R tires make.

The other thing is that every car I've ever driven requires some practice to become familiar with it's winter driving ability. The Prius is a perfect example. Given a set of WR-g2 tires, a light foot, and a bit of practice, it's great in the winter. I've driven through blizzards and on ice days hardly knowing that there was a problem where everyone else was having trouble just keeping on the road. However, if you look through the Prius forums you'll find the same kind of comments that the Model S has (other than there is no RWD to blame--Prius drivers like to blame traction control, no driver blames their lack of winter driving skills--including me :)
 
There is no question that the 19" and 21" are both very poor starting points for winter tires. Ideally you want an 80% aspect-ratio tire for winter driving--not 35% or 45%. Unfortunately, the brake size limits the tire aspect ratio, and the public has been sold the idea that low profile tires are better, when in reality they only give better cornering force on dry pavement. Inboard brakes would have solved the aspect ratio problem because the wheel diameter wouldn't be constrained. However, it's way too late for a mechanical solution like that so it's hoped that the electronics will be tweaked (I have no doubt it's technically possible to tweak the electronics to make the car good in winter if proper winter tires are mounted). I'm really interested in how much improvement the Hakkapeliitta R tires make.

Agreed that having more sidewall is much better for snow tires for sure. However, I have to tell you that I am able to get around extremely well in my R8. This is with a rear tire aspect ratio of 30% (a much wider version of the same Pirelli Winter 240 Sottozero Serie II that comes with the Tesla winter package mounted on stock Audi 19” wheels). Granted, the R8 has Quattro, but in the R8 it never puts more than 30% of the power to the front wheels. The TC on the car allows for just the right amount of wheel spin and even lets the back end get a little loose without going out of control. I guess I’m just trying to say that these winter tires are very good and that you can get around with 19” wheels too.
 
When I tried to minimize energy consumption, driving about 80 km/hr in range mode, I managed to get the consumption down to about 200 W/hr per km, but after 40 or 50 km I received a cold battery pack warning, even though the outside air temperature was only a few degrees below freezing and the battery still had close to 300 km of range left? Does anyone know the implications of that warming? I arrived home shortly after receiving the warning, put the car on charge and all seems to be fine, but the warning seemed to be a cause for some concern (especially in view of the relatively warm temperature and short duration of the trip).

RichardC, thanks for your post.

While having the pack at the bottom of the car is great in many ways including heat dissipation when in high temps, I believe that in cold climate it works against you. I haven't seen much info regarding this as of yet but could explain your situation.

Brings some questions:

Did you have regen working after you got that message?

How will the 60kWh pack behave in cold conditions? Better, same or worse?

200 wh/km is really good in the cold as per previous posts, in fact better than anybody has posted here (more like 400). Seems like pre-heating makes a big difference
 
200 wh/km is really good in the cold as per previous posts, in fact better than anybody has posted here (more like 400). Seems like pre-heating makes a big difference

Yeah, until the battery cools down and then needs to be heated up during driving?!? I hope this is not the case, since on longer trips in the cold it would take away most of the advantage of pre-heating.
 
The other thing is that every car I've ever driven requires some practice to become familiar with it's winter driving ability. The Prius is a perfect example. Given a set of WR-g2 tires, a light foot, and a bit of practice, it's great in the winter. I've driven through blizzards and on ice days hardly knowing that there was a problem where everyone else was having trouble just keeping on the road. However, if you look through the Prius forums you'll find the same kind of comments that the Model S has (other than there is no RWD to blame--Prius drivers like to blame traction control, no driver blames their lack of winter driving skills--including me :)

Jerry, while I would generally agree with you re winter drivimg skills, there are certain circumstances in which the Prius' traction control system (and the inability to disable it) has absolutely infuriating. In cases where a little wheelspin would let you get down to solid traction in short order going uphill in deep snow, the Prius' traction control system is a major pain and results in progress at less than a walking pace. That said, this seems to have been less of an issue for me with the latest generation of Prius, than earlier generations (which highlights the ability of software tweaks to improve the performance).

- - - Updated - - -

All of this discussion about tires makes sense. Doesn't help though if like me you paid $2500 for the winter tire and wheel package.
(and already have them on your car)

While I am personally in the same boat as you, having bought the set of winter tires from Tesla, knowing that different tires could significantly improve performance in snow could assist future purchasers (and potential purchasers), and Tesla, and help this great vehicle live up to its full potential. Also, while I personally have no complaints with these tires, those that have got the existing tires and are unsatisfied could potentially trade them up for something that works better for them. While the net cost of new winter tires (after selling the existing ones on eBay) is not going to be insignificant, relative to the cost of the car ... it could seem like a modest price if it gives you comfort when driving the car in snow.

- - - Updated - - -

richard C - might be worth checking the coolant level, which I assume helps with warmth in winter. At least one other post about a low level and warning light only had come on once for seconds.

Thanks for the suggestion, I haven't got a low coolant warning (which I would hope would be given if this were the problem) but it is certainly worth looking into.

Any information on where and how one can check this level (other than by going to the Tesla service depot)?
 
In my 2008 Prius I have found the traction control to be quite good on level surfaces. I've been impressed. Our driveway is long and uphill going out away from the house. The Prius, WITH WR-G2's (which I like a lot over the original tires) going uphill on snow/ice is as or more worthless than the S in Pat's video. The Prius simply stays in the garage if the drive is the least bit slick. I've been left sliding backwards more than once by the traction control refusing to turn the wheels on the uphill portion.
I DO believe this is a problem with the S. If it can be corrected (I'm not a techy but I believe it can) it SHOULD be a high priority for Tesla. If Tesla is going to make it, they need to be able to sell this car to people who just want to jump in and go to the store. They should not have to learn a whole new set of driving skills to drive the car to the grocery store.
Let's face it; the S should be able to stop on a modestly snow covered hill and continue up the hill with NO heart stopping histrionics.
It's not a show stopper for me. Frankly, there isn't much that could be. BUT, going forward this HAS to be corrected.
 
RichardC, thanks for your post. ...

Brings some questions:

Did you have regen working after you got that message? ...

200 wh/km is really good in the cold as per previous posts, in fact better than anybody has posted here (more like 400). Seems like pre-heating makes a big difference

Thanks PBrulot, in response:

The regen was working, and I don't recall seeing the dotted line indicating any limitation on regen at the time.

I am certain that the preheat helps a lot, and I have been driving Priuses (Prii?) for many years and get as little as 3.5 l/100km (over 1200 km per fill up) in good conditions, so I seem to have been trained to instinctively squeeze the most kms from a litre (or KwHr)
 
Yesterday was the first time I received the "battery is heating" message on the dash. My Model S is garaged in a ~35-40 degree F environment (attached garage), and I typically -- but not always -- preheat the cabin. I drove the car 15 miles to pick up some take-out food and the car sat, unpowered, for 15 minutes while I got my food. About 5 minutes into the drive back home, I received the "battery is heating" notice and it stayed on for 5 minutes before going out.

I've been averaging 350 to 450 Wh/mi when I'm not driving like an idiot :), even in the cold. I did notice, while sitting still the other day, that the heating system seemed to be drawing about 4-5 kW under cold conditions (10 deg F).

I've seen the hair-on-fire reports of "half the MPGe" (misreported as "double the MPGe") but don't believe it for a minute. I haven't been able to average 600 or 700 Wh/mile unless I am purposely trying to.