You pre-ordered a Tesla Model III, so what, do you have a Plug?

[ABCCBA]

Shown in the image are stats from one of my recent home charges. Although I have a 80A circuit with a HPWC, the car only has a single onboard charger, so charging is limited to 40A.

 

[SpiceWare]

Two factors should help if you're stuck charging an M3 on a 110 outlet:

• The M3 will be more efficient with its power, so you should recover more miles on an overnight charge than the MS or MX. Probably not many more miles, but could be enough to make 110 feasible for M3 owners.
• The M3 battery will be smaller, so I would think it would take less time to completely charge vs MS or MX. My understanding is the larger batteries recharger faster at DC superchargers, as they can accept more power, but they'd all be maxing their draw on 110 so the smaller battery would finish first.

I work at home so a 110 outlet will be more than adequate for my needs, but I'm going to have a couple NEMA 15-40s installed in the garage as I already have a friend in another town with a Model S. I expect the number of friends/family with BEVs to increase to increase rather quickly over the next few years, and figured it'll be better for visitors if I have a faster option available.

 

[baltasar]

I already have 3 phase 400V 16A / 11kW in my garage (Croatia).
Just waiting Tesla to make my M3

 

[wallet.dat]

Yikes.

You don't need to think about charging your phone. Everything comes in the box and you plug into the wall outlet in your bedroom, 5 feet from the bed. It's done charging in 2 hours.

You park your Tesla a lot farther away from your bedroom. Sure, everything comes in the box, but there is no convenient outlet nearby, nor is the in-box charger long enough to reach any outlets. So now you need to buy an extension cord and run it to that outlet in your bedroom. The cable is laying on the parking lot and likely no longer follows your building code. Your landlord wants you to keep that damn cable off the ground. Also, your charging cable is just sitting there out in the open. It's like going to the airport, finding an outlet and leaving your phone charging for 8 hours. Assuming your phone is equally heavy and hard to steal as a Tesla, there's a chance somebody may walk away with at least your charger, or potentially damage it.

While your phone finishes charging in 2 hours, your Tesla will take 4 days to charge. Not much more needs to be said here.

Filling up your gas tank takes 4 minutes. Filling up your Tesla takes 40 minutes, and that's not even all the way full! Fully filling it up takes 75 minutes. And you can only go half as far as your ICE car on a 40 min charge.

So you'll be "filling up" twice as often and each time will take 10 times longer. You will spend 20x longer at the gas station. That doesn't include time spent going out of your way to find a supercharger (because they're not at every corner on your route like gas stations) and the act of parking and fiddling with the plug.

You're looking at two hours spent at the "gas station" with a Tesla for every 4 minutes you spend at the same place with your ICE car. To put that in perspective, most people claim they can't go to the gym three days a week for an hour because they don't have the time. We've all felt that way, admit it. But that's only three hours per week. You'll spend two hours per week fueling your vehicle. How valuable is your time?

This is the new "my clutch is slipping" excuse for getting gapped by 4 lengths by the other side of the intersection.

 

[littlecloudy]

Who is 'we' ?

I live in a rental home and do not anticipate any problem. Not so sure about condo and Apt owners but they would have presumably given this a little thought before reserving the car.

There are two articles linked to in this thread. They indicate a very serious problem. Obviously, the vast majority of people on this forum do not have this problem. I feel that as a result there's an air of dismissiveness towards those of us who do.

I rent an apartment. BTW, I used to rent a house but had to move. In some cities, obviously, most people rent, and they rent apartments, not houses. If you rent or own a house, even if your landlord does allow you to install a charger, and then move to an apartment, what then? You're one job move/divorce/whatnot away from not being able to charge your Tesla.

I think people here err in that they don't consider that the goal is to be inclusive in order to move the world to sustainable energy, and that means making a car that everyone can buy as long as they can put down the downpayment and pretty reasonable monthly payments. People here are mostly techies. Most people out there are not. The goal is to get the car to the rest of us, not to have an exclusive club.

Model 3 is the indication to the world that the game is changing. For it to change, you can't exclude whole segments of the population, especially when these are people who desperately want a Tesla. I'm not mechanically or technically minded. I shouldn't have to be in order to own a Tesla. It needs to be plug and play for everyone. That doesn't make non-techies idiots as some here seem to feel. We just don't think about things the same way you do. I thought Tesla would take care of this problem just as I get all technical and mechanical problems taken care of by someone else. This might be difficult for this predominantly male forum to grasp.

I'd like to hear from Tesla what they think about this problem.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

You're looking at two hours spent at the "gas station" with a Tesla for every 4 minutes you spend at the same place with your ICE car. To put that in perspective, most people claim they can't go to the gym three days a week for an hour because they don't have the time. We've all felt that way, admit it. But that's only three hours per week. You'll spend two hours per week fueling your vehicle. How valuable is your time?

Simple solution: plug in car, and get exercise while waiting.

Charging a car differs in one important way from filling a car with fuel: you can walk away from your car. (It's also safe to get in it while it's charging.) So the charging time would not be entirely wasted if you can do something you'd do anyway while it's charging.

While I'd not want to buy without home or workplace charging, I would say that if they get a Model 3, there's an implication of a larger number of PEV sales, and therefore an increasing chance of charging availability improving.

 

[ABCCBA]

Serious questions here:

Who is going to pay for the charging infrastructure at an apartment complex? Who is going to pay for the electrical consumption of the chargers? What percentage of chargers/units should there be?

Same questions for business parks/places of business.

There are two articles linked to in this thread. They indicate a very serious problem. Obviously, the vast majority of people on this forum do not have this problem. I feel that as a result there's an air of dismissiveness towards those of us who do.

I rent an apartment. BTW, I used to rent a house but had to move. In some cities, obviously, most people rent, and they rent apartments, not houses. If you rent or own a house, even if your landlord does allow you to install a charger, and then move to an apartment, what then? You're one job move/divorce/whatnot away from not being able to charge your Tesla.

I think people here err in that they don't consider that the goal is to be inclusive in order to move the world to sustainable energy, and that means making a car that everyone can buy as long as they can put down the downpayment and pretty reasonable monthly payments. People here are mostly techies. Most people out there are not. The goal is to get the car to the rest of us, not to have an exclusive club.

Model 3 is the indication to the world that the game is changing. For it to change, you can't exclude whole segments of the population, especially when these are people who desperately want a Tesla. I'm not mechanically or technically minded. I shouldn't have to be in order to own a Tesla. It needs to be plug and play for everyone. That doesn't make non-techies idiots as some here seem to feel. We just don't think about things the same way you do. I thought Tesla would take care of this problem just as I get all technical and mechanical problems taken care of by someone else. This might be difficult for this predominantly male forum to grasp.

I'd like to hear from Tesla what they think about this problem.

 

[SpiceWare]

There are two articles linked to in this thread. They indicate a very serious problem. Obviously, the vast majority of people on this forum do not have this problem. I feel that as a result there's an air of dismissiveness towards those of us who do.

We're still early in the transition. The same issue existed when gas powered cars first came on the scene - gas stations were few and far between so you'd only buy them if you could refuel, else you stuck with your horse.

For it to change, you can't exclude whole segments of the population, especially when these are people who desperately want a Tesla.

Of course you can. There's no way 100% of the population can change to EV overnight, we don't have a sufficient supply of batteries, so at the beginning of the transition you target the population with the ability to charge at home. As the popularity in EV increases you'll see apartment complexes installing EV chargers as a way to attract renters. This is already occurring in parts of the country, such as at the Pearl Greenway complex here in Houston which has eVgo car charging stations.

 

[littlecloudy]

I feel that there's a certain smugness here.

If Elon said that model 3 is intended only for people who own homes (and to a very limited extent to others who can manage to jump through hoops) I missed that. Can anyone point me to where he said this? I'm a huge fan of Elon and Tesla and feel quite despondent now, as though I don't matter, in contrast to how much Tesla matters to me.

 

[SageBrush]

I feel that there's a certain smugness here.

If Elon said that model 3 is intended only for people who own homes (and to a very limited extent to others who can manage to jump through hoops) I missed that. Can anyone point me to where he said this? I'm a huge fan of Elon and Tesla and feel quite despondent now, as though I don't matter, in contrast to how much Tesla matters to me.

Who would you like to pay ? I hope you find a solution but I personally don't care to pay for it.

In your shoes I would be talking with either the Apt complex or my place of work. Find others who want EVs to split the cost for the Apt or Workplace.

 

[SageBrush]

Yggdrasil explained it well. Parasitics (fans, control circuits) are a smaller fraction of the total energy at higher power levels (currents).

It helps to think of efficiency as output power divided by input power, where input power is: output power + resistive losses (that go as current squared) + diode losses (that go as current) + relatively constant ( or independent of current losses ) losses like control circuits, fans, and likely core losses in the transformer that happen as you tell all the electrons in the transformer ferrite to rearrange themselves 150,000 times a second.

Your question kind of says to do the math on lower loss ferrite again. People don't like to pay for it because of cost metrics, but from a cost to society perspective, it might make sense to use the lowest loss material available. Thanks for a bit of attention redirect.

I vaguely remember losses being proportional to the square of the current; so if that is correct I'm surprised that fixed losses overwhelm that number.

 

[MP3Mike]

I feel that there's a certain smugness here.

If Elon said that model 3 is intended only for people who own homes (and to a very limited extent to others who can manage to jump through hoops) I missed that. Can anyone point me to where he said this? I'm a huge fan of Elon and Tesla and feel quite despondent now, as though I don't matter, in contrast to how much Tesla matters to me.

Elon/Tesla has certainly said that you can use the Superchargers if you don't have your own solution/ability to charge. But you need to be aware that they won't necessarily be convenient. Look at Portland, OR the nearest Supercharger is about 30 minutes away. So depending on where you live/work it could take you 1.5-2 hours, or more, to get to a Supercharger, charge, and get back home. (Don't expect that there will be a Supercharge on every corner, as Tesla has said their main purpose is to make long distance travel possible.)

You have to look at the things and determine if it works for your situation. If you can't charge where you park, either work or home, then it can become very difficult, time consuming, and annoying to have to go somewhere to charge and hang out.

There are lots of third party charging solutions available, but they tend to be slow, and sometimes expensive. (And may get crowded when the Model 3 hits the streets if lots of people without home/work charging solutions available to them buy one.)

 

[littlecloudy]

I see this was discussed here four years ago...and seems nothing has changed.

Model S for renters (a.k.a. non-homeowners) / Renting creating hurdle for EV adoption

Elon/Tesla has certainly said that you can use the Superchargers if you don't have your own solution/ability to charge. But you need to be aware that they won't necessarily be convenient.

Yes...I guess I was expecting the Supercharger network to grow and grow and to use it as a gas station. I didn't really think about this. I am sure I'm not the only one. I could say nothing about all this, seeing as how I'm just about the only one here with this perspective, and it's not comfortable being in this position. But we all go about life taking many things for granted, and being able to charge up my Tesla in some manner, the details of which I didn't think through, was just one of them. I feel that this aspect of things may have been neglected somewhat, perhaps due to the higher than normal level of home ownership and technological savvy among current Tesla owners. I think this is a problem, but maybe I'll just give up on Tesla - a shocking move considering how devoted I am to this - and move on.

 

[BluestarE3]

I feel that there's a certain smugness here.

If Elon said that model 3 is intended only for people who own homes (and to a very limited extent to others who can manage to jump through hoops) I missed that. Can anyone point me to where he said this? I'm a huge fan of Elon and Tesla and feel quite despondent now, as though I don't matter, in contrast to how much Tesla matters to me.

So if you lived somewhere that didn't have electricity and you bought a computer (because it's deemed an essential tool in the modern world), would you hold computer manufacturers responsible for providing you with access to a source of electricity? If you buy a computer or any other electrical appliance, it is assumed you have access to an electrical grid or some sort local electric generator. Was there a need for Steve Jobs or Michael Dell to warn potential customers that they need to have electricity in order to utilize their products? Is it smug for someone to say, "Er, you're you're not gonna be able to use that computer where you live because there's no electricity there"?

Likewise, if you wish to purchase an automobile that you know going in is powered by a source of electricity, you need to consider where and how you are going to charge that vehicle before you opt to buy it. You can't just assume that somehow the problem is going to take care of itself or that someone will take care of it for you by the time your car arrives. If you really want this car, then you need to be proactive and ensure you will have access to a power source to charge it (finding nearby public charging stations; working with landlord or HOA to install outlets or chargers in parking areas; moving to a new location that already provides chargers/outlets or is amenable to installing such).

Diesel passenger cars first made their appearance over three decades ago during the oil "shortage" because they promised better mileage per gallon of fuel. However, gas stations with diesel pumps were few and far between. When I considered buying a diesel car, I did research to be sure there were adequate diesel fueling locations locally before I finalized the purchase. It would have been unwise of me to buy the car first and then try to figure out where and how I could get diesel fuel. Consequently, back then, a diesel car wouldn't have worked for everybody who may have wanted one because the infrastructure wasn't widespread enough. Similarly, today, if you live in rental or high density housing, there may not be the infrastructure for you to charge an electric car where you live, so you'll either have to charge elsewhere (public stations, at work, etc.) or defer your transition to a fully electric car for now. As it stands, an electric car may not be appropriate for everyone at this time. Pointing out that fact is not smugness; it's just reality.

 

[littlecloudy]

So if you lived somewhere that didn't have electricity and you bought a computer (because it's deemed an essential tool in the modern world), would you hold computer manufacturers responsible for providing you with access to a source of electricity? If you buy a computer or any other electrical appliance, it is assumed you have access to an electrical grid or some sort local electric generator. Was there a need for Steve Jobs or Michael Dell to warn potential customers that they need to have electricity in order to utilize their products? Is it smug for someone to say, "Er, you're you're not gonna be able to use that computer where you live because there's no electricity there"?

This is more like buying a computer and expecting to be able to plug it in to any outlet and not expecting it to need special charging. It's like buying a computer and expecting it to work, as opposed to needing to know programming to use it. I've heard people smugly say you should build your own computer and that people who buy Apple are idiots who expect things to be handed to them.

Also, it's Elon's grand mission to take care of all aspects of transitioning to sustainable energy. Or would you say: What, you expect him to provide you with batteries? You need to find your own! You expect to be provided with energy, be it via the grid or via solar? Make your own! You really expect someone to mine minerals for you, create solar panels, weld them? Can't you do it yourself? You expect to wave a plastic card at someone and then get stuff in return? That's crazy.

But I'm tired - I've presented my case. I seem to be the lone ranger here, possibly the only human being with this perspective anywhere, so I'll give up on this discussion. Thanks.

 

[MP3Mike]

If you look you can find plenty of apartment dwellers that have a Tesla and dealt with this. In some cases they strung extension cords out the window, down the balcony, and over to their car once a week to get it charged.

Elon/Tesla isn't going to provide charging stations that are convenient for everyone for daily use just like BMW, GM, etc. don't provide fueling stations. For a lot of people they will be able to charge at home and it will be very convenient, for other people they will use the Superchargers and deal with it, yet other people will use the plentiful third-party charging networks. (i.e. gas stations)

As more and move EVs get on the road, the third party companies are likely to install more, and better, chargers. As well as more businesses and apartment complexes will install chargers. But it isn't feasible to expect Tesla to single handedly provide a charging solution for every car buyer in the world, or even the US. (I suppose that it is possible if things really take off and Tesla steals a lot of market share from other car makers that they could start installing Superchargers a lot more densely, but that won't happen very quick, if at all.)

 

[SpiceWare]

I feel that there's a certain smugness here.

I feel there's a certain sense of entitlement here. Do you expect your current car manufacturer to make sure you can get fuel?

This is more like buying a computer and expecting to be able to plug it in to any outlet and not expecting it to need special charging.

You can plug a Tesla into a variety of outlets, even a lowly 110. You don't need a special one for charging, it just makes it more convenient.

Also, it's Elon's grand mission to take care of all aspects of transitioning to sustainable energy.

While that may be the case, expecting him to do so overnight is absurd.

 

[ABCCBA]

In electrical theory, 'line loss' or 'heat loss' is equal to Resistance * Current Squared or more easily said as 'I squared R'. True in electronics or power grids.

I vaguely remember losses being proportional to the square of the current; so if that is correct I'm surprised that fixed losses overwhelm that number.

 

[MP3Mike]

Also, it's Elon's grand mission to take care of all aspects of transitioning to sustainable energy.

Is that really his grand mission? I didn't think it was to take care of all aspects, but to accelerate the transition. (And to force other people to help out by competing against them.)

The other thing to keep in mind is just like there are subsidies for buying an EV there are subsidies for installing the charging infrastructure for EVs. For example the Feds will reimburse you up to 30%, and the state of Oregon will reimburse you up to 50%. So if you live in Oregon, and can install a charger, you can have up to 80% of the cost of it reimbursed. (Rules are different for commercial subsidies.)

 

[MTN Ranger]

I have a 30A 240V NEMA 6-30 outlet in my garage from my previous EVSE installed in 2011. My plan is to run a #6/3 line from my electric panel to the left side of the garage for a Tesla Wall Connector since the Tesla input is on the driver's side rear (argh). My previous outlet was in the center of a three car garage and will not reach the car in the left most parking spot. Oh well, I have two years to get it done.