200 Wh/mile to use heater?

[SageBrush]

Why not give a range?

150 - 600 miles should cover most (but certainly not all) cases

Glad to be of help

 

[SageBrush]

If you can't have comfort then what's the point of a 75K car.

Sustainable mobility

 

[SSedan]

I really think a lot of you are mistakenly making presumptions about long range travel heater energy consumption based on short trip heater consumption. I haven't taken a lot of trips but when I have I see heater use drop off dramatically by 15minutes or so in.
Also on electricity costs, I can not prove it but here near Green Bay with my S I am fairly certain that January energy use as in all use warming the pack to charge, preheating while plugged in etc nearly triples total energy use. I know those of you in warm places will talk at that bit hear me out. My drive is 7 miles to work car always exposed to outdoor temps and at work has no shelter from wind. I am already seeing a 190wh/m rise in use and I do well timing charging to end before I leave but the battery heater works hard if I leave for lunch and the end of the day.
In the coming weeks it will actually get cold, wh/m numbers will climb into the 500s which is just about double normal and this does not capture all the pack and cabin heating happening when plugged in.

 

[SageBrush]

Yesterday was I think the first time I saw the 'power limited' due to cold warning. Temps have been around 0F at night and 20F during the day; and the car cold soaked 72 hours.

 

[navguy12]

Also on electricity costs, I can not prove it but here near Green Bay with my S I am fairly certain that January energy use as in all use warming the pack to charge, preheating while plugged in etc nearly triples total energy use.

I actually keep total energy uploaded stats.

For all the details, see this link Mike's monthly Model 3 efficiency report

Boiled down:

In my situation, non heating season (no battery conditioning) shows an average 17% difference (in wh/km) between the car odometer and actual total energy uplifted.

In November, I had battery conditioning, heater use, pre-heating, roads covered with precipitation and only very short daily trips which resulted in a 43% differential between the car odometer and actual total energy uplifted.

In December, the only difference to November was the inclusion of two long road trips which translated to a much more efficient use of the energy uploaded.

 

[ricohman]

Speaking of heat.
Anyone have experience at temps colder than -30?
It is -33 here this morning and I would like to hear of some real world experience.
I have read that seat heaters are more efficient however the cabin air needs to reasonably warm to keep your breath from icing all the windows up on the inside.
The joy of living in Saskatchewan.....

 

[SSedan]

navguy12, I am not a big number cruncher but looking at highlights seems your normal use is 141wh/m as reported by the car, about 167 real, for November where temps have begun to fall but are not cold yet but you had a modest daily driver use wh/m went up 18%ish but your unaccounted for by the car went up 150% while total use was only up 45%. It isn't even cold yet. Be very interested in what January brings for you.

Thank you for putting some detailed numbers to this. IMO it backs up the premise that come a truly cold winter month, like here January averages a high of I think 18F and a low of 9F and we will see teens below zero have seen as low as -25F actual, tripling real energy use seems well within reason if the car is exposed to outdoor temps and short say under 10mile trips.

Now if you have a warm garage and the car only leaves for a few hours running errands that will help substantially. You park it outside, even just at work for 8-10 hours and everything gets cold energy use spikes for the errands and commute home. I do not know how much effort the 3 puts into battery heating, but the S uses a lot of power with the dedicated battery heater.

If it has been snowy I am sure a LOT of us use preheat aggressively before leaving work. The other day I forgot and the car was thoroughly iced over.

ricohman, I haven't dealt with temps that cold don't think I have even quite hit -28C with the Tesla close but not quite. As with any car the shocks and tires get hard and stiff at first, but at least it isn't slow to crank over and start.. Other than the drivetrain they are just another car. I do think the battery needs protection once it approaches that temp so plugging in as often as possible at those temps would be critical as I believe energy use will just keep ramping up.

 

[mike123abc]

I
Call me crazy but why in the world would they advertise the LR to go 310 miles per 100% charge and it not even get close to that?!? Why not give a range?

Mine is also the LR, AWD 19" and I was hoping for more mileage. I also live in CA so don't have the major cold others have described so am getting more range- though not as much as I had hoped.

Love the car though.

Remember it is EPA mileage. Just like gasoline powered cars never seem to be able to get the MPG that the EPA window sticker says, the electric cars do not either.

I believe if you take your car out on flat terrain, with 70 degrees and no wind, and drive 60-65 MPH you will make your EPA number... Real world driving requiring heat/ac/hills, and much faster speed limits will drop your range.

For the first 7000 miles of driving on my car, I am averaging 246.71 miles of range. My first 1000 miles with mild AC instead of heat was 265.02, the average has gone down every 1000 miles as the temperature has dropped. It is not really that cold here just 20s and 30s in the mornings (when I do most of my long distance driving) with afternoons in the 50s. The last couple of thousand miles in December it is running 230 miles range.

1000 - 283 wh/mile Oct 17 --- 283 kwh over the 1000
2000 - 287 wh/mile Oct 29 --- 291 kwh over the 1000
3000 - 293 wh/mile Nov 18 --- 306 kwh over the 1000
4000 - 297 wh/mile Nov 28 --- 307 kwh over the 1000
5000 - 297 wh/mile Dec 05 --- 299 kwh over the 1000
6000 - 302 wh/mile Dec 19 --- 327 wkh over the 1000
7000 - 305 wh/mile Dec 31 --- 324 kwh over the 1000

I have had to change my driving route because the mileage has dropped so much... I keep waiting on the promised supercharger.

-Mike

 

[navguy12]

navguy12, I am not a big number cruncher but looking at highlights seems your normal use is 141wh/m as reported by the car, about 167 real, for November where temps have begun to fall but are not cold yet but you had a modest daily driver use wh/m went up 18%ish but your unaccounted for by the car went up 150% while total use was only up 45%. It isn't even cold yet. Be very interested in what January brings for you.

I'll convert to miles for July and for December:

July odometer: 233 wh/mile July actual total energy uplift: 272 wh/mile
Dec odometer: 277 wh/mile Dec actual total energy uplift: 368 wh/mile

Odometer increase from July to Dec: 19%

Actual energy uplifted increase July to Dec: 35%

My car lives in a heated garage at 8c (about 46f).

 

[Perry]

Sustainable mobility

I did not buy the car for that. I bought it because it is the first affordable super-car, it costs 1/3 to fuel, and maintenance cost is close to zero. In fact for all the environmentalists out there, that is what Tesla did right. Instead of pushing a car based on leftist guilt about climate change which only half the population believes in, they used a much more persuasive argument that works universally. They built a better more compelling product that stands on its own merits. In the end market forces and capitalism is what works, not guilt.

 

[SSedan]

Imo the maintenance and repair costs are understated.
I bought my S August 2017 with 65k and 15k miles later you would be surprised at what I have spent on repairs and I haven't even taken it in for the suspension rattle yet.......

Don't get me wrong I am optomistic lessons learned were rolled into the 3 and I am still a happy owner, but the common lines I heard about so cheap to "fuel" and no maintenance have not been my experience.

 

[SageBrush]

Instead of pushing a car based on leftist guilt about climate change which only half the population believes in

Instead of pushing a car based on rational science which only half the population believes in

Ftfy. Realize that you asked a question and I answered it.

 

[Perry]

Imo the maintenance and repair costs are understated.
I bought my S August 2017 with 65k and 15k miles later you would be surprised at what I have spent on repairs and I haven't even taken it in for the suspension rattle yet.......

Don't get me wrong I am optomistic lessons learned were rolled into the 3 and I am still a happy owner, but the common lines I heard about so cheap to "fuel" and no maintenance have not been my experience.

I might agree with you on maintenance. Until a car company like Toyota with a proven build quality comes around and builds a compelling electric car, we will have to deal with build quality novices like Tesla and maintenance could indeed be more costly than current ICE cars. If I would have had to pay for all the service visits (7 in total) I've had to take my, just 2 month old model 3, I would have paid more in repair costs than during my 19 year ownership of my Lexus.

Electric cars built well should cost less to maintain. Unfortunately the car makers don't have the 50+ year experience with building good electric cars yet as they do with ICE cars. It will happen in a few years.

But there is no good argument that electric cars don't cost a lot less to fuel then ICE cars.

 

[Perry]

Instead of pushing a car based on rational science which only half the population believes in

Yes that's another way to put it and is valid none-the-less. My point still holds that you can't sell a car on just 50% of the people's beliefs. You actually have to make a better product in every way to convince people to switch to something new.

 

[SageBrush]

Yes that's another way to put it and is valid none-the-less. My point still holds that you can't sell a car on just 50% of the people's beliefs. You actually have to make a better product in every way to convince people to switch to something new.

Sure. Just leave the petty mud slinging out of your point.
You might also notice that Tesla would not exist but for the desire of its founders, work force and early adopters to advance sustainable transport. Johnny-come-laters have this ideological tendency to rewrite history in their own image.

 

[Perry]

Sure. Just leave the petty mud slinging out of your point.
You might also notice that Tesla would not exist but for the desire of its founders, work force and early adopters to advance sustainable transport. Johnny-come-laters have this ideological tendency to rewrite history in their own image.

You have a point about the mud slinging although I hope you can understand my animus against being force fed this environmental stuff. Living in California, I am suffocating in this echo chamber of like minded thinkers with lack of diversity in thought and opinion. Reminds me of the lockstep propaganda dissemination I experienced growing up in my native communist country.

But I don't agree that the early adopters are all enviros. I think a lot of them also adopted early because the car is better in most other ways.

 

[SageBrush]

I am suffocating in this echo chamber of like minded thinkers with lack of diversity in thought and opinion.

Science has that effect on people versed in the method. AGW is not an opinion; it is science. Pollution is not an opinion; it is science. Loss of biological diversity is not an opinion; it is science. For an echo chamber though, look no further than Trumpers.

Which is not to say that each of those observations do not have associated political choices. To the extent that you are a denialist (probable,) your political opinion appears to be amoral and narcissistic, devoid of responsibility to anything other than your own pleasure. We will agree to disagree whether that outlook is reasonable , and the sooner you are forced to pay the externality costs of your lifestyle, the fairer it will be to the life now and in the future that share the planet with you.

 

[BestHand]

It is funny how we become obsessed with wh/mile after buying Tesla. The cost per mile actually a few times less than for ICE cars. The same people drove ICE cars a year ago and used AC for full blast, stay idle for long and so on without even thinking how it will affect their wallet. Now, we are thinking how to save couple cents per mile... I think we need just to relax and forget we use an electric car. Yes, ICE cars have plenty of heat for winter driving, but it is only because at summer it wasted. And ICE cars range depends of the speed the same way. So, just relax and enjoy.

 

[JeffK]

The cost per mile actually a few times less that for ICE cars.

Depends on the ICE car and other factors....

Example:

My electricity rate is $0.10 per kWh but delivery fees and taxes etc, put this closer to $0.156 / kWh when I get my final bill. There's also a energy loss when charging the vehicle. Let's say charging efficiency is 90%...

It takes me 19.5 kW ( with heat on ) to get to work and back home. 19.5 / 0.9 = 21.666 kWh

21.666 * $0.156 = $3.78 per 50 miles = 0.067 cents per mile in P3D.

By contrast in my old Prius I got 39 mpg. 50 miles / 39 mpg * $2.19 (local price of gas) = $2.81 per 50 miles = 0.056 cents per mile in Prius.

 

[mike123abc]

It is funny how we become obsessed with wh/mile after buying Tesla.

I think it is really range anxiety. I do not think that most new owners would obsess over it now that the model 3 has moved to mainstream and out of the early adopters if there were superchargers everywhere. If one could supercharge as easily as it is to find a gas station, people would not really pay much attention.

With ICE cars, most people do not really worry that their car is not meeting MPG and range that the EPA sticker showed when they bought the car. They think more of how often they have to fill and how much it costs. It is common knowledge that you are not going to meet those EPA numbers -- they are just used for a rough comparison. And yes there is a tiny segment of the ICE buyers that do obsess about the MPG, but you do not really hear much from them.

With Tesla if there is not a supercharger in the area you travel and you travel long distances you have to become obsessed with your watt usage. Part of it is Tesla's doing. They are trying to project an image that you have plenty of range and there will be a supercharger near you. Being within 150 miles of 99% of the population ( https://electrek.co/2018/08/10/tesla-supercharger-cover-99-us-population-within-150-miles/ ) sounds great except when you have to drive 50-100 miles out of your way to get to one of these stations. Essentially a much larger segment of the Tesla buyers have to obsess until more charging points are available.

Essentially I bought my car a tad early for my driving requirements. But, I love the car and will make it work. When a certain supercharger on Tesla's coming in 2018 map finally gets built, 99% of my range anxiety will suddenly go away. Saying that I need to drive my $65k car slow and bring blankets because I cannot run the heat is not really a good selling point. I will work around it this winter and hopefully next winter the station will finally be built.