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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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Question : How much tax do people in those groups typically pay per year ?
In Europe we always hear about low taxes in the USA. What income groups typically pay 7500 or more yearly tax ?

Could it be that part of the people afraid of missing the full 7500 credit pay less tax anyway, and would get their maximum relevant credit even 2-3 quarters after the full 7500 credit runs out ?

Edit: I tried to work it out, if I am correct one need to have a taxable income of around US$ 47k to pay 7500 tax.
That is correct as far as I can tell but one thing you might not realize is your actual income would have to be at least $57k because everyone gets their personal exemption and standard deduction subtracted from their total income. For a married couple the brackets are different and the standard deduction is double and the that is two exemptions so a family income of $78k or so is what I get. Then each kid gets another exemption plus a child tax credit which means a family of four would need a combined income of $94k to get the full $7,500 but they probably have a house which could lead to itemized deductions which further reduce their tax liability. So my numbers might not be exact but you get the idea.
 
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Well yeah.. Tesla didn't buy grohmann because they have a cool name. They bought them because they help Intel make those chips. This is why they bought them instead of just hiring them. Tesla is are not an auto company. What they want to be is a manufacturing automation company that is heavily tech centric. Designed and simulated and then deployed. Lights out factories that build machines at such a high rate that humans can not get near then while they are running for fear if bodily harm. It's like they are designing the Y with grohmann oversight so they can be sure each aspect can be automated. You just can't do that unless you control them.


Remember when Amazon bought Kiva Systems to add robots and efficiencies to their warehouses? Feels like a similar move with Tesla purchasing Grohmann.
 
I don't justify the market value. I simply don't care.

Again, it is a bet, and nothing more than a bet, that Tesla will develop manufacturing advantages leading to possibility of 10% NET margin on around 100B in revenue by the early-mid 2020s. This fuzzy model assumes 10B in Model S/X class products, 80B in 1.9M units of Model 3/Y units, and 5B in energy products.

Trying to make sense of any current share price in a growth company with uncertain outcome is like trying to talk to a cat or a pigeon. The whole reason it can't be justified is because nobody knows what is going to happen.

I would encourage you to build a DCF model. It doesn't have to be a complicated one. Even a simple one will show you that FUDsters here are just trying to bully you into revising your estimates lower with each reply.

Question: if Tesla does accomplish your estimate of 1m cars in 2020, where do you think the stock should be?

Another q: why do you estimate only $5B for Tesla Energy 5 years from today when Tesla will cross $3-4B next year rising super-exponentially thereafter?
 
It is a mistake to assume that once Tesla reaches BMW's size, the company suddenly stops growing or has a growth curve equal to a traditional automaker.

If Tesla's future prospects are looking good in 2021, while other automakers are doing worse, the markets could support a higher P/E ratio for Tesla than they do for other companies. BMW's P/E sits at around 7.5, significantly below the S&P500.

Exactly. The reason BMW's P/E, along with Ford and GM, is so low is because they will likely go bankrupt under the weight of their levered balance sheets.

A valuation discussion on Tesla should not involve any of these three companies. More likely competition are: Volkswagen, Toyota, Apple, Daimler etc
 
IF

"I think the base $35,000 Model 3 is a great car and congratulations to Tesla for pulling it off! On the other hand, I think the pricing of the options is too steep. It may appeal to those in the luxury car market looking to spend $50,000 on a car, but it's too expensive for your median working class family in the USA.

Which is why they will forego heated seats and other nice to have options that don't make economic sense for them
 
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I would encourage you to build a DCF model. It doesn't have to be a complicated one. Even a simple one will show you that FUDsters here are just trying to bully you into revising your estimates lower with each reply.

Question: if Tesla does accomplish your estimate of 1m cars in 2020, where do you think the stock should be?

Another q: why do you estimate only $5B for Tesla Energy 5 years from today when Tesla will cross $3-4B next year rising super-exponentially thereafter?

remember when I was spreading that FUD that Tesla Energy wouldn't even show up on financials in 2017?... that was last year... I had this argument last year... on this board... and I was told to stop spreading FUD because in 2017 Tesla Energy will hit $2B after an enormous ramp that was just about to start in January.

now think about all the FUD regarding the price point required for Tesla to turn a profit on the M3... they've taken every reason they can out of the M3 to get people to not buy the $35k version... to the point that @Reciprocity claims victoriously that "nobody will want the $35k model"... the ASP on the M3 will be well into the 40s.

now think about all the FUD around AP2... FSD ... Tesla Network... 100k to 200k deliveries in 2017... 500k deliveries in 2018 ... etc.

now consider that calling everything you disagree with FUD is the same as Trump calling everything he disagrees with "fake news".

the question is VA... how many years will it be before that TE ramp occurs?... one right? and then another one? and then another one?
 
I would encourage you to build a DCF model. It doesn't have to be a complicated one. Even a simple one will show you that FUDsters here are just trying to bully you into revising your estimates lower with each reply.

Question: if Tesla does accomplish your estimate of 1m cars in 2020, where do you think the stock should be?

Another q: why do you estimate only $5B for Tesla Energy 5 years from today when Tesla will cross $3-4B next year rising super-exponentially thereafter?

In 2020, assuming that Model 3 is selling well and that Tesla is demonstrating new factory technology in Model Y lines, my guess is market cap of 200 Billion, based on anticipation for 2022 of 10B S/X sales, 85B in 3/Y sales, and 5B in energy sales, and 10% net margin. That implies share price of $1225.

This is just a very rough guess though. It doesn't factor in potential future revenues from semi trucks, pickups, autonomous driving networks, or faster growth in energy storage. It doesn't factor in random bad events like disruption of supply chain.

Basically I have no idea what will happen. If the Tesla Energy trend begins to accelerate suddenly I might revise my guesses. Price targets are just a fun game to me. I don't put much faith in them, and my only strategy at this point is to hold until 2021-2022. The chips fall where they fall.
 
remember when I was spreading that FUD that Tesla Energy wouldn't even show up on financials in 2017?... that was last year... I had this argument last year... on this board... and I was told to stop spreading FUD because in 2017 Tesla Energy will hit $2B after an enormous ramp that was just about to start in January.

now think about all the FUD regarding the price point required for Tesla to turn a profit on the M3... they've taken every reason they can out of the M3 to get people to not buy the $35k version... to the point that @Reciprocity claims victoriously that "nobody will want the $35k model"... the ASP on the M3 will be well into the 40s.

now think about all the FUD around AP2... FSD ... Tesla Network... 100k to 200k deliveries in 2017... 500k deliveries in 2018 ... etc.

now consider that calling everything you disagree with FUD is the same as Trump calling everything he disagrees with "fake news".

the question is VA... how many years will it be before that TE ramp occurs?... one right? and then another one? and then another one?

Its less about victory then it is about the market dictating the value of the product. The market has proven with the S that it does not want a nerfed vehicle. There are enough people, in the hundreds of thousands who do not want a 220 mile car with no features and are willing to pay more. Certainly some will get the cheaper version of the car, but not nearly enough to keep the ASP anywhere near $40K. Everything I have seen in terms of people talking about what they want, they all want the added range and features. 8000 people added info to model3info.com and there has been many articles and much analysis of this info that shows people want the extra features and expect to pay more (upwards of $52k on average if I recall). This is not a victory or a bias, its fact. To use your fake news analogy, You are fake news or FUD with the intent to drive a negative impression of the company to impact the stock value and my opinion is based on facts which is reflected in the stocks value and growth. To use your victory analogy, this would be the scoreboard and shorts are losing to the tune of 5B this year in mark to market paper losses. So best I can tell the score is roughly +25B longs.. -5B shorts. What it really comes down to is supply and demand. Tesla is making cars as fast as they can and selling everyone at a hyper premium which allows for very large margins. This will continue for at least the next 18 months and maybe, just maybe they might have to think about promoting the products, but I doubt it. BTW, this saves them about 6B compared to GM. I think Model 3 in the wild will double the demand side of the equation. This could be fake news or the opposite of FUD, but this guesstimate is based on good supporting information; for example, when the model X was coming out the reservations actually accelerated after the deliveries starting happen, even though it was fraught when several delays and multiple issues. This car has just recently finally hit a point where its on par with Model S in terms of order/delivery turn around time. Both the S/X are now mature products that will only become better, and more profitable. This fake news as you call it is a look at the future for the model 3. Even if there are issues, the company is not going to fold up shop just because things are hard. This product will go through the same process as the S/X and will be a mature product at some point. Is that point going to be this year? Probably not. But there is all but 0 doubt that it will be quicker then the X was.

As far as TE goes. You can read dozens it not hundreds of posts on people talking about their powerwall installs and you can read about SA and other bigger installs that are happening. TE is as much about being a profit center as it is about spreading R&D costs shared with car packs across more products and services. For example, Tesla can now build micro grids for its supercharging network and tutn it into a huge profit center, or just cut costs related to becoming gas station for all its cars. This is akin to GM opening 10,000 gas stations with 70% gross margins on the fuel (4c cost per KWh for utility grade solar + battery vs 20c on average cost per KWh for supercharging). Tesla does not need a single TE customer to make billions and become the biggest Utility in the world with cash flows that would boggle the mind. If I can do this simple math, I think Tesla can as well. Funding for Utility grade solar projects is not hard to get, this should be a no brainer for Tesla. Tesla will be on of the biggest consumers of electricity in the world and will also be delivering that electricity. Maybe its fake news or the opposite of FUD, no is saying it is a done deal and the work still has to be done, but the opportunity is there and no one else can do it because no one else Makes the car, panels and batteries.

Tesla network.. Sure its a dream at this point. But if autonomous driving is ever going to happen, if you do not put it into an EV it is absolutely pointless. This is because if you remove the driver, the biggest cost left besides the vehicle itself is the fuel. See TE above. Tesla will be paying 4c for 3-4 miles vs even the best hybrid which would be 5x as expensive. Maintenance costs and endurance also goes to the EV and this compounds as the ICEv hybrid or not gets older. Can Tesla pull it off? Dont know, but they sure can buy it someone if they do it before Tesla. Without the EVs and the charging network, its utterly pointless for anyone else to do it. I cannot stress enough how little value there is in an Autonomous driving world for ICEv. It exposes their weaknesses by magnifying them. Fake news? Maybe. But our job as investors is to try to find the future value based on expect revenue and income growth and Tesla looks to be positioned very well. I think the score board agrees with me and not you.. +$25B in Market cap vs -$5B in mark to market paper losses this year alone. That is what we call a blowout where I come from.
 
The main problem I see here is that too many people seek certainty when there is none to be had.

To piggyback on this simple, yet profound, assessment.

Too many bulls and bears ( yep, both ) disseminate their opinions and models as facts.

IMO, Tesla/TSLA has a large risk/large reward *potential* and given the mission statement is one that is worth investing hard earned money into.
 
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Its less about victory then it is about the market dictating the value of the product. The market has proven with the S that it does not want a nerfed vehicle. There are enough people, in the hundreds of thousands who do not want a 220 mile car with no features and are willing to pay more. Certainly some will get the cheaper version of the car, but not nearly enough to keep the ASP anywhere near $40K. Everything I have seen in terms of people talking about what they want, they all want the added range and features. 8000 people added info to model3info.com and there has been many articles and much analysis of this info that shows people want the extra features and expect to pay more (upwards of $52k on average if I recall). This is not a victory or a bias, its fact. To use your fake news analogy, You are fake news or FUD with the intent to drive a negative impression of the company to impact the stock value and my opinion is based on facts which is reflected in the stocks value and growth. To use your victory analogy, this would be the scoreboard and shorts are losing to the tune of 5B this year in mark to market paper losses. So best I can tell the score is roughly +25B longs.. -5B shorts. What it really comes down to is supply and demand. Tesla is making cars as fast as they can and selling everyone at a hyper premium which allows for very large margins. This will continue for at least the next 18 months and maybe, just maybe they might have to think about promoting the products, but I doubt it. BTW, this saves them about 6B compared to GM. I think Model 3 in the wild will double the demand side of the equation. This could be fake news or the opposite of FUD, but this guesstimate is based on good supporting information; for example, when the model X was coming out the reservations actually accelerated after the deliveries starting happen, even though it was fraught when several delays and multiple issues. This car has just recently finally hit a point where its on par with Model S in terms of order/delivery turn around time. Both the S/X are now mature products that will only become better, and more profitable. This fake news as you call it is a look at the future for the model 3. Even if there are issues, the company is not going to fold up shop just because things are hard. This product will go through the same process as the S/X and will be a mature product at some point. Is that point going to be this year? Probably not. But there is all but 0 doubt that it will be quicker then the X was.

As far as TE goes. You can read dozens it not hundreds of posts on people talking about their powerwall installs and you can read about SA and other bigger installs that are happening. TE is as much about being a profit center as it is about spreading R&D costs shared with car packs across more products and services. For example, Tesla can now build micro grids for its supercharging network and tutn it into a huge profit center, or just cut costs related to becoming gas station for all its cars. This is akin to GM opening 10,000 gas stations with 70% gross margins on the fuel (4c cost per KWh for utility grade solar + battery vs 20c on average cost per KWh for supercharging). Tesla does not need a single TE customer to make billions and become the biggest Utility in the world with cash flows that would boggle the mind. If I can do this simple math, I think Tesla can as well. Funding for Utility grade solar projects is not hard to get, this should be a no brainer for Tesla. Tesla will be on of the biggest consumers of electricity in the world and will also be delivering that electricity. Maybe its fake news or the opposite of FUD, no is saying it is a done deal and the work still has to be done, but the opportunity is there and no one else can do it because no one else Makes the car, panels and batteries.

Tesla network.. Sure its a dream at this point. But if autonomous driving is ever going to happen, if you do not put it into an EV it is absolutely pointless. This is because if you remove the driver, the biggest cost left besides the vehicle itself is the fuel. See TE above. Tesla will be paying 4c for 3-4 miles vs even the best hybrid which would be 5x as expensive. Maintenance costs and endurance also goes to the EV and this compounds as the ICEv hybrid or not gets older. Can Tesla pull it off? Dont know, but they sure can buy it someone if they do it before Tesla. Without the EVs and the charging network, its utterly pointless for anyone else to do it. I cannot stress enough how little value there is in an Autonomous driving world for ICEv. It exposes their weaknesses by magnifying them. Fake news? Maybe. But our job as investors is to try to find the future value based on expect revenue and income growth and Tesla looks to be positioned very well. I think the score board agrees with me and not you.. +$25B in Market cap vs -$5B in mark to market paper losses this year alone. That is what we call a blowout where I come from.
Fantastic info from above! If a company has 400k pre orders for a widget, and has 10 years experience making said widget, there is very little risk here. They are selling cars and energy, not your personal info to get a few advertising cents so you buy whatever (and even that ratio: sale to advertisement is much smaller than unity).
 
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In 2020, assuming that Model 3 is selling well and that Tesla is demonstrating new factory technology in Model Y lines, my guess is market cap of 200 Billion, based on anticipation for 2022 of 10B S/X sales, 85B in 3/Y sales, and 5B in energy sales, and 10% net margin. That implies share price of $1225.

This is just a very rough guess though. It doesn't factor in potential future revenues from semi trucks, pickups, autonomous driving networks, or faster growth in energy storage. It doesn't factor in random bad events like disruption of supply chain.

Basically I have no idea what will happen. If the Tesla Energy trend begins to accelerate suddenly I might revise my guesses. Price targets are just a fun game to me. I don't put much faith in them, and my only strategy at this point is to hold until 2021-2022. The chips fall where they fall.

OK. Thank you for putting numbers around your narrative.

Why do you assume:
  • Zero revenue for Tesla Semi five years after unveil?
  • Only $5B for Tesla Energy five years from today when management guided for a "super-exponential" growth rate multiple times that of Tesla Automotive? For reference, Tesla Automotive will have achieved 75% CAGR from 2013 to 2018. Your CAGR assumption for Tesla Energy from annualized 1Q17 (i.e. $1B in 2017) to $5B in 2022 is 50%, or significantly less than that of Tesla Automotive. Another reference point: 100,000 Solar Roofs alone would bring in more revenue than your estimate, and Gigafactory 2, with its 1+ GWh planned annual capacity will likely be producing more than 100,000 units by 2020. So you're basically assuming zero revenue from Powerpacks, zero from Powerwalls, and zero from solar panels, and no growth for Solar Roofs from 2020.
  • Zero revenue from pickup and other products?
  • Zero revenue from Tesla Network?
But most importantly, what do you think Tesla will do with Gigafactories 3, 4, 5, and 6, first phases of which will likely start coming online by 2020 and majority of which will likely be finished by 2022, since Tesla can probably achieve your 2m units in 2022 estimate with one more Gigafactory.
 
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Half the US population cannot afford a $35,000 car. Almost 70% of US citizens have less than $1,000 in savings.

Since when has one's saving's account ever stopped them from 'affording' a car? Answer: LOTS of people buy things they can't afford. Housing bubble, anyone? Indeed, there are hundreds of thousands of people running around with $600 smartphones that really can't afford them.

Your point is irrelevant simply because 'credit' allows people to buy things they can't afford. ;)

Household income has not kept up with cost of living

Again, irrelevant to reality in terms of what people own/pretend to own via credit.

Many people are not aware of how badly people age 40 and under have been affected by stagnant wages and rising cost of living in the USA. It's a deep subject and I've found many older people (60+) in the states don't understand it and aren't willing to look at the data.

While tragic and unfortunate, not relevant to fact Tesla is going to sell a sugar ton of Model 3s.
 
I have some accounting experience from years ago, but I can use some help from an expert on a specific topic.

If you have professional experience in R&D accounting, please PM me.
 
Being from Europe, maybe someone can inform me about US tax.

Looking around forums I see many interested in the Model-3 worried about the tax credit running out. I can not help to notice that these are often young people, who are just at the start of their career, and people for whom 35k-40k is a stretch and 50k-59k car is not possible.

As I understand the 7500 is a tax CREDIT, and can not be spread over more than one year. So, one has to owe $ 7.500,-- in yearly tax to get the full credit.

Question : How much tax do people in those groups typically pay per year ?
In Europe we always hear about low taxes in the USA. What income groups typically pay 7500 or more yearly tax ?

Could it be that part of the people afraid of missing the full 7500 credit pay less tax anyway, and would get their maximum relevant credit even 2-3 quarters after the full 7500 credit runs out ?

Edit: I tried to work it out, if I am correct one need to have a taxable income of around US$ 47k to pay 7500 tax.

The whole 'OMG, nobody will buy a Tesla (or other EV) when the tax credits run out' is nothing more than white noise and/or fear mongering. This is what people do, they wring their hands, jump up and down, predict doom and gloom about things they have not yet experienced/don't know about/etc... It's like reading threads here on the forum like, 'OMG, no instrument panel on the Model 3 - End of the World I tell ya, End of the World!'. It's fear of the unknown. It's fear of change. It's fear of not having control. Drama. White noise. Total eye rolling worthiness. It'll be fine when those credits run out just like it was fine when Tesla decided they'd build a Gigafactory, and when Tesla decided to merge with Solar City etc...
 
The whole 'OMG, nobody will buy a Tesla (or other EV) when the tax credits run out' is nothing more than white noise and/or fear mongering. This is what people do, they wring their hands, jump up and down, predict doom and gloom about things they have not yet experienced/don't know about/etc... It's like reading threads here on the forum like, 'OMG, no instrument panel on the Model 3 - End of the World I tell ya, End of the World!'. It's fear of the unknown. It's fear of change. It's fear of not having control. Drama. White noise. Total eye rolling worthiness. It'll be fine when those credits run out just like it was fine when Tesla decided they'd build a Gigafactory, and when Tesla decided to merge with Solar City etc...


They'll still buy it when the other option sucks way more than paying 7500 dollars more.

It was way smarter in 1910 to buy a car than a new horse even though the horse was cheaper.
 
Here is something profound to the bears:

Could it be possible that people might possibly have equity in existing vehicles they would divest in to fund a Model 3 purchase?

We sold an Audi Q5 and a Honda Odyssey and rolled it over to a Model X.

Not quite a FULL100k we had to take on for a Tesla.

Oh and if home mortgage interest deduction is gone people start living in apartments or cardboard boxes only.

Look up elasticity of demand. I'm getting a M3 credits or not.
 
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