N5329K
Active Member
There were plenty of rules of engagement on July 28, 1914, too.
Robin
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Robin
Why can't the right thing to do also be a PR move? Elon looks like statesman rewarding behavior he finds admirable. You write as if one must automatically poison the other.
This was addressed by Tesla more than once. The value is in synergies of TE and TA R&D, vertical integration (elimination of the margin stacking) and economy of scale, not to mention diversification and mutual de-risking of each business line (TE, TA). Tesla is the only company which covers all of the above. The juxtaposing cell production vs. integration misses the point altogether.
I disagree. Elon said that the reason for absorbing inverter into the powerpack is the simplification of buying and installation and reduction of cost of the whole BES solution for the end customer. Tesla's power conversion expertise is just an enabler. Once again, the point and advantage of Tesla as compared to just an integrator is that Tesla combines everything under one roof and provides one stop solution. See above.
This question is missing the whole point. See above.
sundaymorning
Active Member
Those who are still in denial of the importance of scty deal are 'tunnel-visioned' while Elon is basically playing 3-D chess.. foreseeing the challenges of invertors and streamlining it to cut cost is a competitive advantage few solar companies can only dream of. If the solar industry is changing at such and such pace, well now they have to change and adapt to "Tesla pace", good luck with that..
The thing here is that TE doesn't have to dominate the solar industry, it just has to have a nice chunk of the pie and coexist with others in order to satisfy shareholders. This is not due or die for Tesla, it's basically adding an extra leg to its core business. Since it has zeroed in on cost per Kilowatt advantage, the integration of scty will only help drive battery cost down even further and distance its competitive advantage with rivals.
If I want a regular solar roof, I have about 5 companies to choose from, but if I want to streamline my roof with a battery, I think of Tesla. And since I already have a Tesla, I don't even think about anyone else.
Comprende bears?
Krugerrand
Meow
It's *intent* was NOT as a PR move. And you simply need to have paid attention to Elon Musk as a human being to know why he offered such. The fact that you or anyone else views it as a PR move is irrelevant to the *intent*.
mmd
Active Member
Panasonic supplies AES as well. They will supply cells to anyone who will pay them.
AES | Energy Storage | Panasonic and AES Announce India’s First Large-Scale Battery-Based Energy Storage Project
AES April 18 2016 said:
AES to deploy 37.5 MW of Advancion® Energy Storage Arrays for SDG&E
AES is just one example. GE and Siemens also have energy storage solutions. Here is a 30 MW GE install in 2015:
GE Signs Its Largest Battery Energy Storage Deal to Date | Business Wire
All these power plant companies can provide a combination of various forms of generation and storage. For example, they can combine a base plant with some storage to make it work as both base plant and peaker plant. The really large scale energy storage (not just battery) in tens of GWh remain pumped hydro, which is also one of the least polluting form of storage.
Grid energy storage - Wikipedia
Besides these large players, there are many others. So, when a Morgan Stanley energy analyst comes out with the projection that Tesla will have 30%-50% of the grid battery storage market by 2020, I can't help smelling fish
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There is so much selfishness in the world any and all acts of selflessness should be rewarded in any way we can and as quickly as possible. The Buddha would say it encourages selflessness. Good and bad are contagious behaviors.
But isn't that exactly what a system integrator is : combining expertise and goods from different suppliers to bring them together into one solution that the customer can buy? Offering a simplicity in acquiring both the product, the support and the maintenance? I fail to see how Tesla is really different. They source their cells from Panasonic at cost plus Panasonic margin, package them up, bundle it with all the tech needed and essentially transform a product into a solution for a customer? That is what Tesla is moving towards with PP2.0 and it is what a system integrator always brought to the table.
Sure, there are pieces in the supply chain where Tesla is ahead of the competition. Notably it will source its storage cells at roughly 30% lower price than competition and it can avoid having to pay out margins to some suppliers in high voltage technology. But there are some areas also where it is behind the competition. For example, Tesla has no software nor application engineering platform for utilities and neither has Tesla a utility grade maintenance infrastructure. The company relies on, for example, AMS to provide those. Other competitors like AES, GE and ABB are ahead here (the latter two also being better in the de-risking advantage you cite as important and at least equally well versed in high voltage electronics through in house experience)
SolarCity is all about bringing TE products to the customer, but it's really retail only, not utility grade. And retail is exactly the place were independent contractors are able to compete due to the small scale. Private companies with a few dozen, maybe a few hunderd employees working on low margins without carrying the overhead of being a centralized public company. That can communicate in a way that resonates with the locals instead of harassing them when they are shopping for a screwdriver in home depot. We see this in the solar panel industry very clearly. And nevermind that SCTY really only covers a part of the US. Everywhere else (China, Germany and Australia to name a few), its purchase did not bring anything for Tesla.
Honestly, I think buying AMS had been the much smarter business move for Tesla were it not for the simple fact that the brand is so reliant on the image of its CEO that it couldn't permit itself to let a SCTY chapter 11 or whatever tarnish his image. I've been negative about SCTY right from when it became relevant, and while I do think TE is a sensible line of business I remain skeptical that the ludicrous gross margins that you project will materialize that easily. I've been told repeatedly that next quarter will show me wrong. So far, I am still waiting.
Ugh. He actually thinks road tunnels "would obviously solve urban congestion", which is just false. Doesn't know what he's talking about. He's never looked at the packing/geometry issues (single-occupancy vehicles are just woefully inefficient and you can't have an urban area built around them) or at induced demand (if it isn't a toll tunnel, people just get more cars until it's congested). If you actually calculate things out, you find that in order to reduce congestion, you need rail tunnels at least.
Physicist syndrome; xkcd has made fun of it. Thinking that you're an expert on things without actually bothering to do the research. It's unfortunate; he doesn't usually succumb to it.
Hopefully he'll do his research. There are real contributions he could make to construction, and it really is an industry with huge amounts of waste in it, but he's currently looking in the wrong places. Visiting an actual tunnel boring site was a good start on doing his research. Apparently it was news to Musk that muck removal was the limiting factor on tunneling speed most of the time, and news to Musk that running into the unexpected was the other limiting factor on tunneling speed, as Flyvbjerg pointed out. If he spends some time actually doing his research, hopefully he'll start figuring out what the real problems are.
Congestion is not because of too much cars, it is because of too much STANDING cars, standing at traffic lights, standing at zebra-crossings and similar braind-dead traffic "solutions".
A city without such brain-dead solutions has no congestion problems.
A city without such brain-dead solutions has no congestion problems.
Over simplification seems to be the bane of good solutions.
Places like Kuala Lumpur solved some notably huge congestion problems by building flood control tunnels as underground highways also. They work. There are numerous other cases in evidence, mostly in mountainous areas, but for those (Rio de Janeiro is a stellar example) spread of urban development is the primary result to traffic congestion quickly returns. From his tweets Elon seems to oversimplify things, but his tweeerts are always hints, not [primary content, so i doubt he really sees the issues quite so simplistically.
OTOH, Hawthorne-LAX is an excellent example of possibilities that actually could have near-magical benefits. Think about The Big Dig. With all the documented horrible problems getting to-from BOS is now not much of an ordeal. Some of us remember what it was like before.
I disagree. Tunnels can solve congestion, it's just a question of how many you need. Theoretically, with hundreds of levels, you could have one tunnel for every person in a city, to transport that person between their home and their workplace. And how many you can have is a function of how much it costs.
dhrivnak
Active Member
I do believe there is a lot of synergy between EVs and solar. On one TMC thread Driving on Sunshine 60% of Tesla owners say they have solar with another 25% wanting solar. So that points to a lot of synergy to me.
What make you think that Musk is proposing tunnels as a way to get rid of public transportation? It seems that idea is to have both.
Tesla Has Sold $15 Million Worth Of PowerPack 2.0 (NASDAQ:TSLA)
is this a joke?... that's the equivalent of 150 MS/MX sales... this is a $45b company... this should be considered a negative thing... not a positive thing... is this the ramp you were looking for?
is this a joke?... that's the equivalent of 150 MS/MX sales... this is a $45b company... this should be considered a negative thing... not a positive thing... is this the ramp you were looking for?
Everything. The broad market has been rallying based on vague Trump promises.
Tesla is part of the broad market. The way the broad market has been acting since November is not normal or healthy.
My "agenda" is to have a meaningful discussion about investment related topics that are not being discussed, in the "General Discussion" thread.
I'm one of a handful of people on TMC who has been consistently optimistic about Tesla's trajectory. I find it entertaining I'm being criticized for encouraging people to be cautious, and encouraging discussion about geopolitical factors that are not normal.
racer26
Active Member
I did not mean to imply that Elon's intent was not simply to support the man who acted selflessly because its a kind and noble thing to do.
It might not be an intentional PR play, but it certainly has that effect.
peripheral:
Samsung batteries aren't the only fires being dealt with--
Samsung Chief Arrested on Bribery Charges in Corruption Scandal
also reminder:
SpaceX launch tomorrow -
background: First Pad39A launch since shuttle - SpaceX refurbishing Pad39A for it's future Falcon Heavy launch from this Pad (previously used for Saturn5 moon launch). The Falcon Heavy first launch targeted for Q2 this year- will be the largest rocket in existence today (by double)- govt or private, the largest ever by anyone (except Saturn5). The Pad39A Falcon Heavy launch (target capabilities for SpaceX Mars-Train program) will also set history with 3 CONCURRENT 1st booster returns (they are scheduled to get permit for the new 3 pad receiving facility any time now).
Anyway- the launch tomorrow may begin peripheral discussion of all this happening 2017 and relate back to Musk- Tesla etc. -
so-
There it is Wendy
- Second star to the right and straight on till morning
- we can fly, we can fly, we can fly
Samsung batteries aren't the only fires being dealt with--
Samsung Chief Arrested on Bribery Charges in Corruption Scandal
also reminder:
SpaceX launch tomorrow -
background: First Pad39A launch since shuttle - SpaceX refurbishing Pad39A for it's future Falcon Heavy launch from this Pad (previously used for Saturn5 moon launch). The Falcon Heavy first launch targeted for Q2 this year- will be the largest rocket in existence today (by double)- govt or private, the largest ever by anyone (except Saturn5). The Pad39A Falcon Heavy launch (target capabilities for SpaceX Mars-Train program) will also set history with 3 CONCURRENT 1st booster returns (they are scheduled to get permit for the new 3 pad receiving facility any time now).
Anyway- the launch tomorrow may begin peripheral discussion of all this happening 2017 and relate back to Musk- Tesla etc. -
so-
There it is Wendy
- Second star to the right and straight on till morning
- we can fly, we can fly, we can fly
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