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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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From Ted:

On Tesla, Musk said the Model 3 was likely to start production in July. It will have autopilot using only cameras and GPS, rather than lidar. “Once you solve vision, autonomy is solved. That’s why our focus is so heavily on having a vision neural net that’s very effective for road conditions. You can absolutely be superhuman with just cameras; ten times better than humans.”

Musk believes Tesla will have a fully autonomous car cross the USA by the end of 2017 and said the firm is on track for being able to go cross country from a parking lot in LA to a parking lot in New York fully autonomously in November or December,
with no controls touched at any point during the entire journey. "I'm fairly confident it will be able to do that route even if you change that route dynamically. It should be able to go anywhere on the highway system in any given country.”

Maybe buying December or January calls is a good idea!

But he did warn that the increasing use of autonomous cars would in fact increase traffic congestion.

“A lot of people think that when you make cars autonomous they'll go faster and that will alleviate congestion. That's to some extent true. But the affordability of [using] cars will be better than a bus, so the amount of driving will grow with the shared economy, and traffic will get far worse.”

Instead, he explained there would be a “shared-autonomy fleet”: “You buy your car, you can choose to use it exclusively, by friends or family, by others rated five star, or you can choose to share it some of the time.”

The reason for the tunnels is to reduce the effect of congestion. It's the only possible and possibly affordable way to do that. To early to know if he can make this affordable or not:

The business, which he calls the Boring Company, is initially targeting Musk's home town of Los Angeles but could extend across the US. “We're trying to dig a hole under LA – to be the beginning of what will be a 3D network of tunnels,” he told TED curator Chris Anderson at the annual conference in Vancouver. “Traffic takes away so much of your life, and it’s particularly horrible in LA. There's no real limit to how many levels of tunnel you can have. You can eliminate any arbitrary level of urban congestion with a tunnel network.”

For the first time, Musk also revealed details about how the network will work, explaining that cars will enter and exit the tunnel network on “elevators” built into the road. These would each require just one parking space, Musk said. Once underground, “there’s no speed limit.”

When asked about costs, Musk said the LA subway extension cost $2bn for two and a half miles so he's hoping for “at least a tenfold improvement in the cost of tunnelling per mile” with The Boring Company. If a single road needs to be 26ft to 28ft in diameter, you can shrink that diameter to 12ft, explained Musk, which cuts the cross-sectional area by a factor of four. “That's roughly half the price cut right there.”


“I have a pet snail called Gary,“ added Musk, and “Gary is capable of going 14 times faster than a tunnel boring machine. We want to beat Gary, who's not a patient little fellow. Victory is beating the snail.”

Continuing, Musk argued that tunnelling has advantages over flying cars. “There’s a challenge of flying cars – there'll be quite noisy, the wind force generated will be quite high. And with these things [flying] above, it’s not an anxiety-reducing situation. You'll think, did they service their hubcap – or will it come off and guillotine me?”
 
A possible concern regarding the earnings call is if Elon does announce GF3-6 and maybe other new CapEx programs and increase M3 production targets for 2017. Would analysts translate that into massive CapEx and with M3 not beginning until Q3, further raise alarms regarding risk? I remember being quite giddy 1 year ago about the M3 reservations going into earnings and Elon pulled in M3 production to 500k in 2018 and all the analysts dropped their targets. Wonder if anything similar could happen given M3 is still not "out" yet and analysts might still distrust Elon, at least for another quarter.

Does anyone have a good idea what a GF costs. I know there are A LOT of incentives from local governments in NV and NY. I am sure there will be large incentives in China and Europe and wherever else. How much is Panasonic going to be involved in future GFs? I would assume the same, but maybe they cant afford it? As we have seen, the GF does not have to be fully built out to start contributing to revenue side of the books. If its $5 billion all in and there are $.5b worth of incentives, 1b from Panasonic, and of course you have to assume they will be making cars in GF3-6 as well. I guess my point is, how much do they have to contribute to revenue side to make them viable and can they be break even when they are 33% built? I am not against capital raises when it is for this type of expansive, but damn it would be nice if they could fund the expansive with revs, especially if they can start to contribute before they finish the building.
 
That's an obvious and good one. I am also going to ask about the roadster and "the supercar" that I hope they do and see if he denies it.

If you're going, maybe start a thread and we can vote on a question we'd like as a group? Personally, I would ask what he is working on now that is most exciting to him. MY, Semi, Roadster, Pickup, or something else entirely? And why, of course.
 
A possible concern regarding the earnings call is if Elon does announce GF3-6 and maybe other new CapEx programs and increase M3 production targets for 2017. Would analysts translate that into massive CapEx and with M3 not beginning until Q3, further raise alarms regarding risk? I remember being quite giddy 1 year ago about the M3 reservations going into earnings and Elon pulled in M3 production to 500k in 2018 and all the analysts dropped their targets. Wonder if anything similar could happen given M3 is still not "out" yet and analysts might still distrust Elon, at least for another quarter.

Thoughts?
I assume/hope China will be one of the first confirmed Gigafactories. Considering their demand for EVs, I expect this would be considered a positive development for Tesla and reflected in the share price.
 
This idea of elevators and sleds is just silly to me. It will double the cost and with autonomous cars coming well before these tunnels are in service, there just is no gain to the sleds. Is there anyway to lower the air pressure in the tunnels to lower the drag? Similar to the hyperloop but not completed depressurized. Just enough to allow cars to go 120 efficiently? Platooning with networked cars will also help efficiency a lot. I believe networking the cars will be a requirement for all self driving cars anyway.
 
This idea of elevators and sleds is just silly to me. It will double the cost and with autonomous cars coming well before these tunnels are in service, there just is no gain to the sleds. Is there anyway to lower the air pressure in the tunnels to lower the drag? Similar to the hyperloop but not completed depressurized. Just enough to allow cars to go 120 efficiently? Platooning with networked cars will also help efficiency a lot. I believe networking the cars will be a requirement for all self driving cars anyway.
The sleds are slot car chassis that allow power to be delivered with no energy storage.
 
The sleds are slot car chassis that allow power to be delivered with no energy storage.

Ok, here is why I think its silly. Lets say I drive to work today from inland empire to LA and plug in at home. I dont need energy free travel even though that commute is pretty far.

Lets try to break this down; First you drill a big arse whole. That costs a lot of money to make it safe and ventilated. All I am saying is that adding slot cars that have their own brains and communications and electrical requirements will add expense and doesnt add that much value. And you need like well 100,000 of them so at $1000 a piece, which they will be 10x that, its a $100,000,000 - $1b just for sleds for the daily commute from the inland empire. The elevators for a car, add in another 100,000,000 unless you are just going to have 1 for the entire inland empire, but wait you will need probably 10,000 elevators or everyone will be waiting for an elevator.

Pretty simple. Use ramps instead of elevators. Ramps in parking lots, not city streets where you will have a nightmare dealing with government to tear up the road and increasing traffic while you are trying to solve it. Parking lots will love for you do allow them to be an entry/exit as people will park there once they exit. The elevators also get infinitely more complex when you have to go 10-20 stories down. They can also break down. Its just silly.

Dumb wholes with ramps that lead to them. The cars do not even have to be fully autonomous because they can have 100% perfect maps and know with in millimeters where they are in the tunnels with simple sensors. Network the cars,which will be required by law before to long, then platooning commuters together into trains makes it way more efficient as the front car would break the air. If you wanted, Tesla could build some autonomous lead cars that have a nice cone to break up the air in front of the train and guide them through the tunnels to their destination.
 
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“I have a pet snail called Gary,“ added Musk, and “Gary is capable of going 14 times faster than a tunnel boring machine. We want to beat Gary, who's not a patient little fellow. Victory is beating the snail.”

I had to consult with my local SpongeBod expert on this, and according to my daughter, Patrick's "snail" Rocky won the great Snail Race against SpongeBob's snail Gary and Squidward's snail. So Musk should careful with this reference, the rock may just beat them all.
 
This cultural insight may help with the platforms.

In the US, people use their car as a home base. Spare glasses, soap for poison ivy, wrenches, tools, baby stuff, extra water bottles, suntan lotion, an extra front wheel, key passes to get into controlled facilities (home link garage door openers), drive up personality characteristics akin to a fanfare....

There is a reason SUVs sell.

The margin on SUVs is better.

Freedom has more value in the US than in th EU. That is an overstatement,... maybe:

"Freedom has a different dimension in the US - A dimension that includes transportation."

Also, of necessity European cities are more efficient in utilizing land. Not so in the cowboy U.S. cf, suburban sprawl which apparently is reversing demographically. I will believe this when we tear up a freeway for high density housing in California. Happened in San Francisco, not for demographic change, but because of an earthquake opening up (so to speak) the possibility.
 
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Dave, there will be a replay of Ted talk highlights including Elon's interview tomorrow at select theatres in the us nationwide. If you are in the Chicagoland area - I'm going to the IMAX theatre in Lincolnshire, IL if anyone wants to meet up. Popcorn on me!! Courtesy of TSLA. MMD - you are also welcome to come - I'll buy u ice cream as well since it was a rough week for you.
TED Cinema Experience

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, nothing close enough for me to make it today. Any idea if/how long it takes for TED to post video online?
 
Hyperloop = vacuum tube. Boring tunnel made to move non-airtight cars cannot be a vacuum.

The original idea for a hyperloop vacuum tube analogy appeared in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science decades ago where the propulsion was to come from pressure differentials. I don't remember if the article discussed the problem of seals, either for the tube (say, at stations) or to effect the propulsion differential by a seal around the vehicle itself in the tunnel.

Elon's initial proposal established the pressure differential by means of a turbine within the vehicle and maglev. If I remember correctly propulsion through maglev and magdrive was first mentioned by the MIT student team in the hyperloop competition. In any case there has to be some method of creating pressure differential in the tube to eliminate as much aerodynamic drag as possible. It could be the turbine, no longer needed for propulsion, can use far less energy if it is designed only to create a pressure difference from zero to top speed and not one useful for locomotion itself.

Sorry if I am just repeating what has been said or designed into the system by definition. (My ME degree is sixty years out of date so I have to think in simplistic terms.)
 
Is there anyway to lower the air pressure in the tunnels to lower the drag? Similar to the hyperloop but not completed depressurized. Just enough to allow cars to go 120 efficiently?
You could...
airplane-oxygen-mask-2.png

But I wouldn't recommend it.
 
Ok, here is why I think its silly. Lets say I drive to work today from inland empire to LA and plug in at home. I dont need energy free travel even though that commute is pretty far.

Lets try to break this down; First you drill a big arse whole. That costs a lot of money to make it safe and ventilated. All I am saying is that adding slot cars that have their own brains and communications and electrical requirements will add expense and doesnt add that much value. And you need like well 100,000 of them so at $1000 a piece, which they will be 10x that, its a $100,000,000 - $1b just for sleds for the daily commute from the inland empire. The elevators for a car, add in another 100,000,000 unless you are just going to have 1 for the entire inland empire, but wait you will need probably 10,000 elevators or everyone will be waiting for an elevator.

Pretty simple. Use ramps instead of elevators. Ramps in parking lots, not city streets where you will have a nightmare dealing with government to tear up the road and increasing traffic while you are trying to solve it. Parking lots will love for you do allow them to be an entry/exit as people will park there once they exit. The elevators also get infinitely more complex when you have to go 10-20 stories down. They can also break down. Its just silly.

Dumb wholes with ramps that lead to them. The cars do not even have to be fully autonomous because they can have 100% perfect maps and know with in millimeters where they are in the tunnels with simple sensors. Network the cars,which will be required by law before to long, then platooning commuters together into trains makes it way more efficient as the front car would break the air. If you wanted, Tesla could build some autonomous lead cars that have a nice cone to break up the air in front of the train and guide them through the tunnels to their destination.

Try to think about the concept as hyper loop for the city, with the ultimate goal of replacing all forms of transport, including goods, the sled is just the propulsion unit for a lot of different uses, a hint to this was the transparent passenger module in the video.
 
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