Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Agreed, I could see lower margins as they work through the install process as it appears they will be doing the installs in the beginning and not outsourcing. I believe the goal is to do the first years worth of installs to refine the process, machines and any automation they can put into the system before signing up certified installers. Elon's goal seems to beyond the tiles themselves and extends to streamlining the laborious and time consuming process of installing as well. I have no idea how they could automate as the machine would have to be pretty expensive to operate on top of a roof. I could imagine a rail system that gets put down and then a machine that scoots across the roof laying tiles onto the rails and screwing them in.

I think people will be shocked how cheap it will be to make these tiles in massive amounts. Glass is easy to work with compared to large aluminium panels.

What I like most about these tiles is that they are an extremely unique differentiation vs other solutions. I am sure there will be competition, but I expect the machine that makes the machine process will allow Tesla to remain a leader in quality at a reasonable price.

I agree with you that high margins are unlikely for the first year (or possibly two), while Tesla refines the manufacturing and installation process.

The market probably will care about short-term margins and volumes, and discount the value of this opportunity accordingly. Although longer time horizons arguably add risk, I personally view the market's short-sightedness as an arbitrage opportunity/advantage for long-term investors.:)
 
Last edited:
Thank you for the very informative post. It seems that we agree on most points.

You mentioned you were tempering your expectations. Would you mind sharing what they are?

I had noted yesterday that mine are 25,000 Solar Roof's in 2017, 50,000 in 2018, and 100,000 in 2019, which seem to be in-line with Elon's "slow ramp-up" comment considering the very low level of 25,000 roofs with which I'm starting.

I actually don't have any firm numbers in mind, and am comfortable with this since in my mind the SP is about 20% of what it should be based on the TA and storage business. Solar Roof is all "icing on the cake" as far as I'm concerned.:)

I threw out a 100K installs in 2020 SWAG, which seems very reasonable/conservative, just to start getting my head around very rough possible orders of magnitude in the short-term (next three years). IMO your estimates also look fine although I really have no idea how many installs will take place in 2017 and even 2018. This could be a PW1-type scenario with a very slow initial roll-out. I really have no idea -- we shall see.

Although I think taking a more disciplined stab at numbers is valuable, the magnitude of the business is highly speculative at this early stage. I think @jbcarioca hit the nail on the head when he said that we really won't have any idea what the market will be for four years, and I expect we will only be scratching the surface even then. Which of course is similar to where things were when the Model S initially launched, so it's nothing new for long-term Tesla investors.:)
 
I threw out a 100K installs in 2020 SWAG, which seems very reasonable/conservative, just to start getting my head around very rough possible orders of magnitude in the short-term (next three years). IMO your estimates also look fine although I really have no idea how many installs will take place in 2017 and even 2018. This could be a PW1-type scenario with a very slow initial roll-out. I really have no idea -- we shall see.

I'm glad we're in the same chapter, so to speak, if not on the same page.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EinSV
It is curious that Tesla is not forthcoming about the efficiency of their solar roofs. I will try to estimate this.

Silevo and I believe Panasonic too have achieved at least 22% panel efficiency and 24% cell efficiency. So let's assume that 20% shingle efficiency is plausible. Standard insolation is 1 kWp/m^2, so a square foot would be about 93Wp. At 20% efficiency, the solar shingle would provide 18.6 Wp/sqft.

Now the cost. I believe we need to separate the cost of the roof from the cost of the solar to make a proper comparison with competing solar systems. So the net price before ITC is $31 = $42 - $11 per sqft and net price after ITC is $18.4 = $42*70% - $11. I believe this net price includes the inverter and wiring as it is an installed cost. I am netting out $11/sqft as this price for this roof without solar.

Thus, I arrive at a fully installed cost of solar at $1.67/W before ITC and $0.99/W after ITC. For the next few years within the US, the after-ITC price is the relevant one. Competitive rooftop solar in the US has been in range of $3 to $4.5 per W, while competitive utility scale solar is in range of $1 to $1.5 per W.

So it appears that Tesla may be able to bring utility scale priced solar to US rooftops. This would be a truly amazing achievement. It has enormous consequences for the utility industry.

Those who favor utility solar over distributed solar have generally supported this view on grounds that utility scale solar is much cheaper per W than residential. That view often brushed aside the value of avoided transmission and distribution costs that distributed solar provides. The view has been that these are fixed assets that must be paid for regardless. So the if solar can be sourced at lower cost remote from usage, then it appears to be a sensible use of T&D assets. However, if both remote utility solar and distributed rooftop solar achieve the same $1/W parity, this argument breaks down. There is not cost advantage to remote solar generation. The only advantages relate to need for more solar capacity than can be obtained from roofs, and for that added capacity there is the added cost of needing to provide and maintain a certain capacity level of T&D assets. These assets may still be needed for back up power from other large generators, including wind and hydo, but they are not specifically needed to bring utility scale solar prices to residences.

So I rather suspect that Tesla chose this specific pricing scheme to show that they could hit the $1/W target that utility solar industry has be trying to achieve. They are not boasting about the efficiency just yet. This may be for strategic reasons to buy them a bit more time to roll out this new product. But Big Solar must at this point have an inkling that something has shifted.
 
If we are trying to estimate potential margins and gross sales, it seems to me we need to know rough sales volumes of existing roofing materials with expected lifetimes, purchase costs and installation costs for each. We also should consider that some markets (e.g. Australia, Hawaii, islands not connected to mainland power sources) will have disproportionate economic value and others will have less price sensitivity (e.g. private islands, remote housing, high end developments). Because these are local markets around the world the probable economics of Solar Roof plus Powerwall/Powerpack will vary according to local tax rules, local roofing materials costs and local labor costs.

Given the in the US domestic market roofing materials alone vary from ~$1.00 (tar) to ~$15.00 (sheet copper) with installation costs varying by enormous levels (double to triple in some areas vs others)due to local labor market, availability of specialist installers etc. The expected lifetime costs of the two extremes often favor the most extensive option because a properly designed, fabricated and installed copper roof can last a century.

The problem we face is that there really is no way to estimate what demand might be. each individual perspective depends on many factors, so a given GC can speak only within a highly specific context.

There are precise analogies, all involving category-redefining products.
- the introduction of the Tesla Model S. Nobody had a clue what demand there might be. Even Elon Musk predicted 25,000 per year. Because there is no established market for the Solar Roof/ Powerwall combination and all the previous potential comparative products were not integrated as Tesla is the predictions will be fraught.
-the iPod, iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch. All seemed like derivative products but they revolutionized their categories.
These all sold for much higher prices than people thought plausible and all attracted large crowds of nay-sayers.

So, I will be most surprised if a GC will have a clue, but some just might be surprising. I do think high end residential property developers and developers in remote areas will have sound perspectives. If you survey such categories around the world in sunny places with expensive developments I think you'll quickly see that there is a giant global market, which will be quite different than the existing Tesla consumers. Separately existing Tesla consumers should be an interesting market too, and store sales will work, but the scale will not even approach that of developers.

My off-the-cuff guesses of substantial markets include Australia (world's highest house solar market penetration ~15%), Pacific islands (hundreds of luxury resorts and housing developments), the Caribbean and close US islands (lots of small countries but lots of high end private islands that want to get rid of diesel generators and still have nice aesthetics), Southern France, Southern Spain, Croatia, just ring the Mediterranean. Then there is China, with countless new eco-oriented housing developments cities and towns, many emulating western-style construction.

Net: we will not have any remotely accurate guess of potential until about four years from now. Then Tesla will need lots of Gigafactories, while competitors will act to grow the market further and Tesla will thrive anyway. The sorts will still short because all this sounds like pie-in-the-sky unless one understands who the buyers will be.

I repeat: buy, buy, buy!!
I really like your perspective on things, and insight. I am also fascinated by the breadcrumbs you drop about your life experiences. If you ever write an autobiography, I would read the heck out of it.

Thanks for your contributions.
 
There is always a desire for more of pretty much everything. But people cannot justify it based on the cost. When they are evaluating the 100kwh vs 150kwh battery it will be a very big difference in retail price. Minimum of $20,000? There will be some, 2% who really really cannot live without and there are those who just have more money then sense. Plus, they wont have an option for 5 years so its really a moot point.

Cost doesn't remain static.

I repeat: not being economically (or otherwise) viable currently is different than stating there's no need.

Tomorrow's batteries will have 50% more energy density for less cost than today's. Are you going to suggest there's no need ti implement larger than what we have today simply because of charge speed improvements?
 
Red M3 looks great
Red Tesla Model 3 Spotted

screenshot39.jpg
 
Last edited:
I'm glad we're in the same chapter, so to speak, if not on the same page.
I am in the early stages of developing a preliminary 2020 estimate of installs myself. I can say for certain that 100,000 2020 installs would not even cover demand from the Middle East, given quite conservative assumptions of 15% penetration of new single-family housing with sales prices above US$700,000. There are many, many unknowns, not least of which is forecasting actual new construction in a series of volatile markets. When we consider known high demand markets only, we'll end out with a minimum of 500,000 2020 installs. So, IMHO the question is mostly supply, not demand.

FWIW, I am ignoring any demand at all other than high end single family housing where sun and incentives combine. That should make for easy pickings when offering a fully integrated easy installation product array. Integration is the entire key, plus cachet. These need to be aspirational buys, not unlike Model S and X, with a sales motioning form developers. That market is already happening, with a couple of Australian announcements IIRC.

Does anybody have any notion what 2020 production capacity might be? BTW, just look at the Tesla Energy dropdown menu to see the countries they think are first on the list.
 
I am in the early stages of developing a preliminary 2020 estimate of installs myself. I can say for certain that 100,000 2020 installs would not even cover demand from the Middle East, given quite conservative assumptions of 15% penetration of new single-family housing with sales prices above US$700,000. There are many, many unknowns, not least of which is forecasting actual new construction in a series of volatile markets. When we consider known high demand markets only, we'll end out with a minimum of 500,000 2020 installs. So, IMHO the question is mostly supply, not demand.

FWIW, I am ignoring any demand at all other than high end single family housing where sun and incentives combine. That should make for easy pickings when offering a fully integrated easy installation product array. Integration is the entire key, plus cachet. These need to be aspirational buys, not unlike Model S and X, with a sales motioning form developers. That market is already happening, with a couple of Australian announcements IIRC.

Does anybody have any notion what 2020 production capacity might be? BTW, just look at the Tesla Energy dropdown menu to see the countries they think are first on the list.

Wow, look forward to seeing your analysis. IMO, at 500K installs per year in 2020 this goes from being icing on the cake to being another cake.
 
It is curious that Tesla is not forthcoming about the efficiency of their solar roofs. I will try to estimate this.

Silevo and I believe Panasonic too have achieved at least 22% panel efficiency and 24% cell efficiency. So let's assume that 20% shingle efficiency is plausible. Standard insolation is 1 kWp/m^2, so a square foot would be about 93Wp. At 20% efficiency, the solar shingle would provide 18.6 Wp/sqft.

Now the cost. I believe we need to separate the cost of the roof from the cost of the solar to make a proper comparison with competing solar systems. So the net price before ITC is $31 = $42 - $11 per sqft and net price after ITC is $18.4 = $42*70% - $11. I believe this net price includes the inverter and wiring as it is an installed cost. I am netting out $11/sqft as this price for this roof without solar.

Thus, I arrive at a fully installed cost of solar at $1.67/W before ITC and $0.99/W after ITC. For the next few years within the US, the after-ITC price is the relevant one. Competitive rooftop solar in the US has been in range of $3 to $4.5 per W, while competitive utility scale solar is in range of $1 to $1.5 per W.

We don't know how much of each tile is usable solar cell area, so not all the area of the $42 tiles will produce electricity. Or are you lumping that into your 20% shingle efficiency?
 
Those who favor utility solar over distributed solar have generally supported this view on grounds that utility scale solar is much cheaper per W than residential.

Do those utility solar costs include delivery or just supply? I know for me, the delivery is more the supply cost. I do but have solar yet, waiting for more info like you provided on the solar tiles. I have quotes almost identical to what you are showing so this is extremely timely for me.
 
I am in the early stages of developing a preliminary 2020 estimate of installs myself. I can say for certain that 100,000 2020 installs would not even cover demand from the Middle East, given quite conservative assumptions of 15% penetration of new single-family housing with sales prices above US$700,000. There are many, many unknowns, not least of which is forecasting actual new construction in a series of volatile markets. When we consider known high demand markets only, we'll end out with a minimum of 500,000 2020 installs. So, IMHO the question is mostly supply, not demand.

FWIW, I am ignoring any demand at all other than high end single family housing where sun and incentives combine. That should make for easy pickings when offering a fully integrated easy installation product array. Integration is the entire key, plus cachet. These need to be aspirational buys, not unlike Model S and X, with a sales motioning form developers. That market is already happening, with a couple of Australian announcements IIRC.

Does anybody have any notion what 2020 production capacity might be? BTW, just look at the Tesla Energy dropdown menu to see the countries they think are first on the list.

I agree that the market is large, but can we conclude that Tesla will have the market share and the margins? Or will the margins be competed away by others as happens in many high-growth industries? We'll see in the coming years if the "shocking amount of technology in the connectors" or having one of the best inverter engineering teams or Tesla's brand value, or a combination, is enough to provide Tesla with superior margins.

Trust me, I hope that Tesla hits it out of the ballpark with the Solar Roof, and I want to be optimistic both as an investor and a world citizen. I guess the dozens of bankrupt solar companies, with the surviving ones currently trading at very depressed multiples (if at all profitable), left a really bad taste in my mouth for me to be optimistic about 3+ years out.
 
Last edited:
Does it compare favorably in Norway? Where I live, I can replace my tile roof for about $13,000 to $15,000. Tesla's calculator quoted $80,000 for my house.
What product
We don't know how much of each tile is usable solar cell area, so not all the area of the $42 tiles will produce electricity. Or are you lumping that into your 20% shingle efficiency?
My relatively uneducated opinion is that: while only a oart of a tile has solar cell, they overlap, so effectively that patch of roof has close to 100% solar cell exposed. In addition, the price is per sq ft of installed roof, not raw shingles. The 20% efficiency is how much ofvthe raw sunlight is converted to electricity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.