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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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(rough numbers in for Tesla... precision here isn't the point)

This is why I will most likely not change my general short position on TSLA in the near future. When will Tesla Auto ever substantially contribute to the $100B to $1T market cap claims by longs or even the $36B it currently holds? TSLA is currently priced at levels that the company doesn't even have medium term goals for... 1m/yr M3 by 2020 is the last stated goal which doesn't even justify the current position in the list above.

I understand CAGR... but when I look at this... and consider risk of execution combined with how many years out this stock is priced... and in those years the competition will only increase... I just don't get it... Unless everyone expects Tesla to just drop auto and just become Tesla Energy... go ahead and rail me... what am I missing here?

One big thing you are missing:
Market is pricing ICE auto dinosaurs with low PE with the expectation that they will eventually decline and die. S&P500 PE is about 17. So, any company/industry priced lower than this PE has long term business decline priced in.

Tesla on the other hand, is a growth company.
 
Lots of questions this am. Will Panasonic be allowed to sell 2170 cells made in Asia to companies other than Tesla? Once the technical specifications of the 2170 cells are generally known, seems everyone in the electric transportation and energy storage business will want to buy them.
Nobody cares about the format other than Tesla. Nobody will be interested in buying the cells, pretty useless without Tesla's pack building technology and the large OEM's are all choosing larger format pouch cells.

Let's not forget that ramping cell production is a lot simpler than ramping car production. Likely that Panasonic only needs to replicate the production line that is now producing cells, especially true since they have similar, if not identical, production lines making 2170 cells in Osaka. We should expect a rapid increase in 2170 production in Gigafactory1. Seems likely that cell production will not limit the ramp of Model 3 production.
Your conclusion is correct but the facts are incorrect. The reason phase one has taken so long relatively is that they were designing and building the new cell production equipment. Now that they have completed the first phase, the succeeding phase will be faster, and the costs will be less as they ramp production of the cell manufacturing equipment.

You have a good point about cell packing not really being affected by format change, and only height makes a significant difference.

Your formula is only for the bottom area, you need to multiply by length to get volume.

Also, your thesis fails to account for: changes in cooling which allows closer packing, less cell casing, and changes to chemistry which can increase pack performance.
I was referring to the ludicrous contention that it's possible to obtain a 30%-48% improvement in pack capacity due to the 2170's vs the 18650's.
I know that height is necessary to calculate volume, which is why I stated that the pack volume that can be attributed to the format is limited to about 7.7 percent (5 / 65 = .0769 %).

The changes in cooling are not dependent on the format change except that with a larger diameter format there is a smaller number of gaps between the cells which reduces the possible advantage of the 2170's, which supports the fact that a 30%-48% increase in pack capacity due to the larger format is ludicrous.
 
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Has the model S really had noticeable issues with production in the last two years? S was basically on time in terms of guidance, and production has been pretty smooth for a while now, no?
Dual motors upgrade, P100D pack issues... I'm just nick picking but point is introducing new changes seems to have slow downs. I'm perfectly fine with it and expect it.
 
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One big thing you are missing:
Market is pricing ICE auto dinosaurs with low PE with the expectation that they will eventually decline and die. S&P500 PE is about 17. So, any company/industry priced lower than this PE has long term business decline priced in.

Tesla on the other hand, is a growth company.
If indeed the market is pricing in a decline of big auto, you ought to be able to find old data from the early 2000s that has the big automakers at a closer to average PE.
 
It's curious that Clayton Christensen has maintained that his theory does not apply to Tesla or electric vehicles generally. He views electrification as a sustaining technology for the automotive industry, rather than a disruptive. This is largely because his theory focuses on cheap technologies finding niches that then advance to take on more established technologies. He thinks if cheap golf carts take over cars that would be disruption, but not if a high end electric progressively becomes more affordable.

I do believe he is missing the point of what exactly is being disrupted. It is not cars per se, but the internal combustion engine and gasoline that is getting disrupted by little battery cells. Who would have thought that laptop batteries would come to imperil ICE and fossil fuels? Clearly, batteries are not sustaining technologies for ICE makers and the oil industry.

It is surprising that Christensen makes this mistake. Much of his book traces the evolution of hard drives. Hard drives go progressively smaller. This did not make mainframe computers go away. It only meant that with time even mainframes would incorporate smaller disk drives, even as the suppliers of larger disk drives went out of business. The analogy here is that a batter drive train is more like smaller disk drive than a mainframe computer. The outer shell of cars or computers may not be disrupted even as critical internal components are disrupted and fall into the dust bin of history. So I suspect that Christensen himself has particular blinders regarding EVs.

This I believe reflects poorly on his theory, in that it is not crisp enough to identify disruption in the face of other intellectual biases that a researcher may have. Indeed the point of such a theory should be to help practitioners get beyond their organizational blinders and see the disruption potential before it happens. It should not be used to discount a potential disruptor because it fails to meet a certain set of expectations of a given theory. Clayton made the same mistake with iPhones. He said it was a high end sustain technology for cell phone. Only in hindsight did Christensen recognize that the disruption was to PCs than to cell phones. People were willing to pay more for smart phone, not because it was a replacement for cell phones, but because it was a replacement for other computing devices that added enormous mobility. And yet PCs were much more powerful computers at the time. So PCs were clearly disrupted, not so much phones per se. Camera and film were also disrupted. So it a poor theory of disruption that can only recognize disruption after the fact. Christensen should be asking himself, if EVs are a potential disruptor, what exactly would it be disrupting? Put this way one can easily see many technologies at risk, and the incumbents which profit from them are also at risk.

Now the Gigafactory is mass producing cells. Every cell is displacing older technologies. The list of technologies and companies within range of this dreadnought is quite long, but this alien ship will keep firing with increasing speed.

Tesla is definitely a Disruptive Innovation and you have it right. An easier way to think of it is that the Supercharger network is disruptive to Gas Stations. They are fundamentally cheaper (no employees, no land rent or ownership, no fuel delivery cost, fundamental cheaper fuel) the downside that limits them to a niche market is charge time, availability, and vehicle cost, the downsides are rapidly improving (battery cost is captured in vehicle cost). I wrote about this a year ago in a blog post that you can read here. Christensen also gets ride sharing services like Uber wrong because he compares them to Taxis, but what they are really disrupting is car ownership.
 
Nobody cares about the format other than Tesla. Nobody will be interested in buying the cells, pretty useless without Tesla's pack building technology and the large OEM's are all choosing larger format pouch cells.

Isn't FF essentially using the same format of cells, other than supplied by Samsung? So I wouldn't say that nobody cares about the format.
 
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Yesterday's headlines were amazingly incorrect. Tesla doesn't make any cells, Panasonic does. Both technology and equipment are owned by Panasonic. Yet I didn't see any headline saying "Panasonic starts cell production at Gigafactory". The qualification and packaging of cells is identical, no matter the cells come from across a line in the factory or across the Pacific.
From the Gigafactory opening party in July, Tesla employees are not even allowed in the Panasonic area where cells are produced. I wonder, has Tesla started paying them now for advertizing that they are putting out favorable headlines?
Tesla starts battery cell production at gigafactory
Tesla begins churning out battery cells at Nevada Gigafactory
Tesla starts cell production at Gigafactory, shows it off to investors
Tesla starts battery cell production at gigafactory
Tesla starts battery cell production at gigafactory
Deutsche Questions Whether Tesla Has Overcome Production Challenges

When a new iPhone is released, should the headlines read "Samsung releases new phone model" instead? Since Samsung supplies most of the processors for the iPhones?

BTW, "we sell every car we make" is a tautology. Everyone does. If it doesn't sell, lower prices till it sells and then lower production till you have nothing left to sell. That's exactly what Tesla is doing. Every quarter, quite a bit of downtime, except may be Q3 of last year.

At 25%+ gross margin, does this really even matter? Discounted Teslas still earn far more profit than most other cars do at full MSRP.
 
I think the chemistry probably isn't as good as you are assuming. I arrive at around 0.75 GWh/year with current chemistry, running 24/7. This may be a realistic estimate, if we assume maybe ~20% improvement in chemistry and ~20% downtime.

My understanding is that there are four production lines, so the question is how many of these machines there are per line - maybe four? That would work out to the first phase being 12 GWh/year. (I think these machines were in the Panasonic section of the factory not covered by the Gigafactory tour, so I don't think we can reliably say how many machines they actually have.)

Do these machines run all the time or are they activated only when the more time-consuming steps are complete?
 
Do these machines run all the time or are they activated only when the more time-consuming steps are complete?
We don't really know. But it's probably a safe assumption that they would only install sufficient machines to keep them running as much of the time as possible. There's little point in installing say 20 machines and letting them sit idle 50% of the time versus installing only 12 machines and keep them running at an average of 84% of the time.
 
My read is all the analysts and bears isn't doubting M3 is a simplification of S/X but that actual mass production is not a cake wake. I don't think there is anyone that doesn't believe the 3 will be easier car to make. There are plenty of evidence that hiccups and slowdowns already plagued the current production line. Continual slowdown and execution problems burns cash and cash drained will be start of the end for Tesla... so the bears say.

I agree we shouldn't compare S/X to M3 in the manufacturing process and also we should not assume M3 will have highly technical design difficulties. If so we also should not think Tesla will perfect M3 manufacturing process in the first crack.

Well said, that also brings up an important distinction; the difference between starting production on time, and ramping to high volume levels.
 
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BTW, "we sell every car we make" is a tautology. Everyone does. If it doesn't sell, lower prices till it sells and then lower production till you have nothing left to sell. That's exactly what Tesla is doing. Every quarter, quite a bit of downtime, except may be Q3 of last year.
Deutsche Questions Whether Tesla Has Overcome Production Challenges
That article is 6 months old. Tesla has produced 70% more cars each quarter since then. Does that mean they have overcome production challenges?
 
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I was referring to the ludicrous contention that it's possible to obtain a 30%-48% improvement in pack capacity due to the 2170's vs the 18650's.
I know that height is necessary to calculate volume, which is why I stated that the pack volume that can be attributed to the format is limited to about 7.7 percent (5 / 65 = .0769 %).

The changes in cooling are not dependent on the format change except that with a larger diameter format there is a smaller number of gaps between the cells which reduces the possible advantage of the 2170's, which supports the fact that a 30%-48% increase in pack capacity due to the larger format is ludicrous.
Thanks for clarification. Fewer gaps but they will each be larger. Still, the density per unit area of the new pack would seem to be increased. I can wait.
 
Update on borrowing activity at Fidelity. Note that interest rate went up from 1% to 1.75%.
Can you or Ihor's determine the SP when a substantial number of shorts bought in?
Isn't FF essentially using the same format of cells, other than supplied by Samsung? So I wouldn't say that nobody cares about the format.
Really?!

I meant large oem's, not one niche vaporware company.
 
Nobody cares about the format other than Tesla. Nobody will be interested in buying the cells, pretty useless without Tesla's pack building technology and the large OEM's are all choosing larger format pouch cells.

I think that is about to change. Tesla has made its patents available to others. Now we have superior Panasonic cells for both energy storage and vehicles. Panasonic has an interest in selling superior and cheaper cells. Their customers have an interest in buying into superior and cheaper solutions. There appear to be no barriers to this change. There will be added motivation when Tesla ramps up Model 3 and energy storage, cutting into sales of competitor's inferior products (this process has already begun with Model 3 reservations and sales of Tesla energy products).
 
That's foolishness!

They wanted to delay the income from the MX production?

Elon was planning on going through production hell and sleeping on the production line?

How did those things help them transition to the M3?

It does sound foolish, but for a while there really wasn't a big rush to get the x going because the batteries were harder to get and more expensive, for a while I think they were buying every 18650 they could and it was barely enough for the s. The only reasons they did x instead of going straight to the 3 after the s is because they already had the s/x platform going and they had to buy time in order to drive battery prices down and volume up in order for the 3 to make sense. The roadster,S, and X are just appetizers, the 3 and so forth are more like main courses.
 
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You have a good point about cell packing not really being affected by format change, and onlt height makes a significant difference. Your formula is only for the bottom area, you need to multiply by length to get volume. Also, your thesis fails to account for: changes in cooling which allows closer packing, less cell casing, and changes to chemistry which can increase pack performance.
.

On my original post on this topic I had a mathematical error on the volume. Forgot to half the width to get the radius, oops. It was a good point that height makes a larger impact to pack density then the width of the cell. Improvements made to cooling design, casing and most important changes to chemistry will increase pack performance. Chemistry improvement is the biggest variable and current unknown. The powerpack and powerwall show a double of kwh in the same basic footprint. They sure engineered a lot of improvements using these 2170 cells and pack design. This is key to the profitability equation of model3 & TE. It could in theory enable price reductions or higher gross margins for Model S/X down the road.

Can't wait till somebody gets a hold of one of the 2170 cell to do some testing to obtain Specific Energy, Energy Density, charge/discharge efficiency.

volume = pi*r2*h
1865 cell: 16540.49 mm^3
2170 cell: 24245.24 mm^3
46.58% increase in volume
 
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