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2017 Investor Roundtable: TSLA Market Action

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Poor guy... more pathetic than Spiegel and that means something!
At least Spiegel has managed to time his thesis announcement to crown a long-running slide in the stock price, and thus became famous as the Spiegel-bottom. Chanos, can't even get the timing right, he is late by more than a week, the bottom was ~300 on Dec.6th, 8 days ago, and today it hit above $347, more than 15% rise in a week. It just looks much worse to announce a company to be zero after a 15+% rise in a week, rather than doing it after a long slide.
 

As I earlier wrote in the Fact or Fiction thread:

Over an hour ago Probes Reporter published this article led by a negative click-bait headline. It turned out to be much-ado-about-nothing. Although hedge fund algobots may have reacted to it. Benzinga, TD Ameritrade and its Thinkorswim transmitted only the headline.

The article concludes with, "The probe ended on 31-May-2017 with no enforcement action recommended."
 
The guy has done one good operation with Enron, now he thinks he's an hero.

Indeed. As I earlier wrote in the General Discussion thread:

Sixteen years ago, Chanos was right about Enron imploding. He was publicly short Enron stock for only a short while. He has since made a career of promoting that good call, and getting the media to bow to his requests to appear and pass along to the public his latest short selling recommendations. He's been doing this for a number of years with Tesla, leading to severe losses for himself and his followers. Elon Musk is not Kenneth Lay or Jeff Skilling of Enron, but Chanos apparently hopes that by equating them he can get you to sell or short Tesla stock to save his short position and reputation.
 
With TSLA shooting upward for a week, Chanos has been making the rounds of the financial media repeating the same tired FUD, apparently out of desperation. Here's what I wrote here just 24 hours ago:

Chanos has been spreading essentially this same FUD for years, enticing others to join him in setting up losing short positions in TSLA. As I've said before, he doesn't get it. He's used to evaluating established companies in stable industries on a quarterly basis. Judging the long-term potential of an innovative young company in the process of disrupting long established capital intensive industries is beyond his pay grade. He should stick to buying or shorting the types of companies that might be better suited for the simple valuation model he learned in his college finance class.

Then again maybe he does get it, but needs to keep up a pretense in hope of saving his short position and reputation.
 
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my take on Chanos, and the broader nexus of shorts, Tesla "news" coverage, and potentially the involvement of the massive concentrated wealth that 1/10 of the world's economy tied up in fossil fuels and incumbent transport represents. we've seen nonsense for years, we are likely to continue to see it for years, our investing will go better if we recognize and understand these things better.

I do think we can assess the games that happen with some large pocketed market players and the media. For example, that video often posted here from around 2007 of Jim Cramer outlining some of those games is quite eye opening.

I think it is in our interest to assess these activities and note when they are happening. That said, I have no interest in judging anyone. So, to be clear, In this post, I'm not asserting Chanos is "nefarious." In fact, I think it's fair to say Chanos is being emotionally honest. He probably very much feels as if he'd like to see the entire investment community believe his claims about Tesla and see the resulting impact on TSLA that would have.

So, while I think we can say he's being emotionally honest and not "nefarious," I think we can make the assessment that he is stating falsehoods it is very very probable that intellectually he knows are false without judging him.

In this short 3.5 minute segment from Chanos, we continual intellectual falsehoods as follows,

1) claims production line can't be made for semi or Roadster by '19 & '20: false, he doesn't know where Tesla is on preparing for production, what's more production volumes on both vehicles will be smaller than previous Tesla vehicles, far smaller the first year or two

2) claims Daimler is testing an EV semi: false or grossly misleading, no public claim of a class 8 truck from Daimler (not sure if "semi" is used for class 8 only, so not sure if outright false, or just grossly misleading to imply they have a truck in the same category as Tesla

3) claims Tesla has been leapfrogged in autonomy: grossly misleading, cites Waymo but leaves out their hardware costs 100X Tesla's, cites Audi level 3 claim, but leaves out Tesla's test fleet is roughly 1000X as large

4) tries to paint Tesla as mass exodus of executives: false, top execs are the same as 5+ years ago (CFO did leave for 1.5 years, but is back), turnover in line with tech

Xfactor) Chanos says he was in Detroit all day yesterday meeting with auto execs- you don't say, lols hmm would be consistent with the theory that the market largest short position, a massive position for 5+ staying outsized even when the stock exploded, is more comprised of massive concentrated wealth trying to slow down the disruption of fossil fuel/incumbent transport industry than traders deciding TSLA is overvalued.

As I stated yesterday, having watched Chanos talk many times now, I find it highly improbable someone with the mental abilities, knowledge of Tesla, and indications of independent thinking he displays believes the extremely off the mark statements he is saying. Chamath Palihapitiyaexpressed similar incredulity yesterday re how it could be that Chanos would actually think these things. He may or may not be working with fossil fuel/incumbent transport enormously deep pockets, or not (and those deep pockets may or may not have a huge TSLA short position), but, it's just a very large stretch to think Chanos believes what he says in my view... that's my assessment of his statements, as to Chanos the person, I don't see myself as if I am a judge of him.

link to video for convenience,

Kynikos' Jim Chanos: Tesla's Elon Musk has a broad interpretation of the truth
 
Indeed. As I earlier wrote in the General Discussion thread:

Sixteen years ago, Chanos was right about Enron imploding. He was publicly short Enron stock for only a short while. He has since made a career of promoting that good call, and getting the media to bow to his requests to appear and pass along to the public his latest short selling recommendations. He's been doing this for a number of years with Tesla, leading to severe losses for himself and his followers. Elon Musk is not Kenneth Lay or Jeff Skilling of Enron, but Chanos apparently hopes that by equating them he can get you to sell or short Tesla stock to save his short position and reputation.

Thanks Curt.

I view Chanos as the peeked high school football player, a few years later wasting away on the sidelines making everyone else’s life miserable that knew him.
 
2016: Spiegel: Tesla is going to zero. Ultimate result: Turned out to be a great bottom indicator.
2017: Chanos: Tesla is a zero. Ultimate result: ???

Ultimate result, my stock is almost up $100 a share making 2016 feel better and padding my RMD draw for 2018. Thank you to all!

Our daughter, her husband and our grandkids cannot wait for me to fart on the leather ~ that way they get the MX:) For them it worked in the past ~ just say’n:) I do not think grandma is going to allow this car to slip away quite so fast:)

Ultimately I like the moment of zen:)
 
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Assuming TSLA is in a similar position going into Q4 2017 earnings as Q1 2013, the numbers below show what the price action could look like over the next few months, within the current trading range (0.618 magnitude):

Date Closing PPS
12/14/2017 337.89
12/15/2017 337.14
12/18/2017 325.76
12/19/2017 317.23
12/20/2017 316.46
12/21/2017 316.07
12/22/2017 320.91
12/26/2017 321.24
12/27/2017 324.61
12/28/2017 329.59
12/29/2017 331.38
1/2/2018 333.00
1/3/2018 331.55 - 2017 Q4 delivery numbers after close (est)
1/4/2018 364.21
1/5/2018 366.31
1/8/2018 349.77
1/9/2018 354.56
1/10/2018 351.22
1/11/2018 353.63
1/12/2018 346.68
1/16/2018 353.88
1/17/2018 362.92
1/18/2018 363.74
1/19/2018 361.43
1/22/2018 373.24
1/23/2018 372.53
1/24/2018 380.23
1/25/2018 384.54
1/26/2018 396.26
1/29/2018 400.26
1/30/2018 397.45
1/31/2018 405.10
2/1/2018 401.25
2/2/2018 419.36
2/5/2018 414.88
2/6/2018 411.51
2/7/2018 415.47
2/8/2018 417.56
2/9/2018 440.97
2/12/2018 422.70
2/13/2018 424.02
2/14/2018 487.94 - 2017 Q4 ER after close (est)
2/15/2018 519.93
2/16/2018 566.14
2/20/2018 547.97
2/21/2018 554.48
2/22/2018 584.41
2/23/2018 581.47
2/26/2018 575.35
2/27/2018 566.06
2/28/2018 564.66
3/1/2018 586.62
3/2/2018 603.63
3/5/2018 654.54
3/6/2018 633.64
3/7/2018 634.84
3/8/2018 607.96
3/9/2018 588.09
3/12/2018 596.92
3/13/2018 598.98
3/14/2018 606.67
3/15/2018 624.73
3/16/2018 617.20
3/19/2018 595.93
3/20/2018 608.64
3/21/2018 610.37
3/22/2018 618.52
3/23/2018 625.76
3/26/2018 630.26
3/27/2018 635.12
3/28/2018 620.01
3/29/2018 615.82
 
2016: Spiegel: Tesla is going to zero. Ultimate result: Turned out to be a great bottom indicator.
2017: Chanos: Tesla is a zero. Ultimate result: ???

Well, Spiegel’s fund was around 4 million (IIRC) when he made that announcement. SP went from 180 to 380.

Chanos I think is around 100-200 million (maybe more?). Same announcement. SP starting at 340.... if we extrapolate where would that go up to?—paging @TrendTrader007 :D
 
Can any logistics experts corroborate or negate the line above that it is supplier who pays for the higher cost of air vs ocean freight?

It didn't take me long to come up with a variety of scenarios under which that is a pipe dream.

If not....the last time my Pisten Bully broke a hydraulic pump, in the middle of race track prep, guess who it was who paid to have it air shipped Gold Freight to Fairbanks? It sure wan't Kassböhrer!!!

Sounds like in the early days Tesla paid for air freight. From the 2012 fourth quarter conference call:

"..but close behind it are things like logistics and supply parts, so another thing that we had to do that was really inefficient in fourth quarter was we had to fly a lot of stuff.

And when you fly something, it can cost as much 10 times what it costs to ship it by sea or rail or truck, particularly if it is heavy. And so, we had to do some dumb things like fly tires from the Czech Republic like (indiscernible) that was, like one of the -- I want to punch myself on the face for that one.

At the risk of [bringing], I’ll just give you like a little anecdote. There are a hundred things like this, but as it turns out, we have a supplier for the 21-inch tires that’s in the Czech Republic, and it was taking – we have terms of -- we have 30-day payment terms with them, and when they were shipping the tires, it actually took longer than 30 days to get to us. So the tires would get to us and would be passed you, so that happened like a number of months, and then they put a hold on the shipments because we had not paid on time even though we weren’t getting the tires before we were getting the bill, so then they put the hold on that.

Anyway, that was just a big (indiscernible) to fly a bunch of tires from Czech Republic to keep production going. That will give you one sort of extreme example of how logistics can actually go bonkers."

Tesla's CEO Discusses Q4 2012 Results - Earnings Call Transcript | Seeking Alpha

I suspect one way or another the customer always pays, just like home buyers pay the real estate commission even though it shows up in the seller's column on the HUD-1. Similarly, all the hand wringing about reducing corporate tax rates seems to be by those who do not grasp that taxes are passed through to the corporation's customers
 
With TSLA shooting upward for a week, Chanos has been making the rounds of the financial media repeating the same tired FUD, apparently out of desperation. Here's what I wrote here just 24 hours ago:

Chanos has been spreading essentially this same FUD for years, enticing others to join him in setting up losing short positions in TSLA. As I've said before, he doesn't get it. He's used to evaluating established companies in stable industries on a quarterly basis. Judging the long-term potential of an innovative young company in the process of disrupting long established capital intensive industries is beyond his pay grade. He should stick to buying or shorting the types of companies that might be better suited for the simple valuation model he learned in his college finance class.

Then again maybe he does get it, but needs to keep up a pretense in hope of saving his short position and reputation.
Bottom line: he is on a mission with an agenda. He has his blinders on, like all shorts. He ignores lots of important facts, focusing on a a few things to enable his reality distortion field. EM vs Chanos. That's not even fair.;)
 
my take on Chanos, and the broader nexus of shorts, Tesla "news" coverage, and potentially the involvement of the massive concentrated wealth that 1/10 of the world's economy tied up in fossil fuels and incumbent transport represents. we've seen nonsense for years, we are likely to continue to see it for years, our investing will go better if we recognize and understand these things better.

I do think we can assess the games that happen with some large pocketed market players and the media. For example, that video often posted here from around 2007 of Jim Cramer outlining some of those games is quite eye opening.

I think it is in our interest to assess these activities and note when they are happening. That said, I have no interest in judging anyone. So, to be clear, In this post, I'm not asserting Chanos is "nefarious." In fact, I think it's fair to say Chanos is being emotionally honest. He probably very much feels as if he'd like to see the entire investment community believe his claims about Tesla and see the resulting impact on TSLA that would have.

So, while I think we can say he's being emotionally honest and not "nefarious," I think we can make the assessment that he is stating falsehoods it is very very probable that intellectually he knows are false without judging him.

In this short 3.5 minute segment from Chanos, we continual intellectual falsehoods as follows,

1) claims production line can't be made for semi or Roadster by '19 & '20: false, he doesn't know where Tesla is on preparing for production, what's more production volumes on both vehicles will be smaller than previous Tesla vehicles, far smaller the first year or two

2) claims Daimler is testing an EV semi: false or grossly misleading, no public claim of a class 8 truck from Daimler (not sure if "semi" is used for class 8 only, so not sure if outright false, or just grossly misleading to imply they have a truck in the same category as Tesla

3) claims Tesla has been leapfrogged in autonomy: grossly misleading, cites Waymo but leaves out their hardware costs 100X Tesla's, cites Audi level 3 claim, but leaves out Tesla's test fleet is roughly 1000X as large

4) tries to paint Tesla as mass exodus of executives: false, top execs are the same as 5+ years ago (CFO did leave for 1.5 years, but is back), turnover in line with tech

Xfactor) Chanos says he was in Detroit all day yesterday meeting with auto execs- you don't say, lols hmm would be consistent with the theory that the market largest short position, a massive position for 5+ staying outsized even when the stock exploded, is more comprised of massive concentrated wealth trying to slow down the disruption of fossil fuel/incumbent transport industry than traders deciding TSLA is overvalued.

As I stated yesterday, having watched Chanos talk many times now, I find it highly improbable someone with the mental abilities, knowledge of Tesla, and indications of independent thinking he displays believes the extremely off the mark statements he is saying. Chamath Palihapitiyaexpressed similar incredulity yesterday re how it could be that Chanos would actually think these things. He may or may not be working with fossil fuel/incumbent transport enormously deep pockets, or not (and those deep pockets may or may not have a huge TSLA short position), but, it's just a very large stretch to think Chanos believes what he says in my view... that's my assessment of his statements, as to Chanos the person, I don't see myself as if I am a judge of him.

link to video for convenience,

Kynikos' Jim Chanos: Tesla's Elon Musk has a broad interpretation of the truth
Given the impact the success of Tesla will have on his reputation over the next couple of years, I find it improbable that he would knowingly short TSLA while realizing it is foolish, no matter how much he may be getting paid by the fossil fuel industry.
 
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