2018.21 0fa48d9

[diplomat33]

Watching videos doesn't qualify you to speak to anything. I've driven 32k miles and I've seen AP2 from the first build to 2018.18. I'm not like @TaoJones where I was duped into trading in an AP1 car and therefore have experience with that. So I don't make comparisons. Some people who own both say AP2 is better at some stuff and AP1 is better at the rest.

I know watching videos does not make me an authority on the subject. But I do trust people who do own both AP1 and AP2 and are speaking from their direct experiences. When I read owners who do own both say that AP2 is now better in some areas, I believe it because they are speaking with authority on the subject.

 

[croman]

I know watching videos does not make me an authority on the subject. But I do trust people who do own both AP1 and AP2 and are speaking from their direct experiences. When I read owners who do own both say that AP2 is now better in some areas, I believe it because they are speaking with authority on the subject.

@fasteddie7 is one of them and has documented it. I believe him but I'm not really into comparisons. I just care about AP2 and seeing Tesla deliver what they said. So far, its been a lot of hot air and $8k in the hole.

 

[diplomat33]

@fasteddie7 is one of them and has documented it. I believe him but I'm not really into comparisons. I just care about AP2 and seeing Tesla deliver what they said. So far, its been a lot of hot air and $8k in the hole.

Yes, I want AP2 to be great too and this latest update 21.9 gives me hope that it is definitely moving in the right direction.

 

[croman]

Yes, I want AP2 to be great too and this latest update 21.9 gives me hope that it is definitely moving in the right direction.

See, we've been fooled so many times before its sunk in that we've just got to see it with our own eyes. Simply displaying cars in adjacent lanes isn't indicative of progress. The ramp thing, from what I've seen in @BigD0g 's video seems to be a cop out feature. I see what Elon was talking about with the two attempts. They were trying to do it the right way vs. just a hacked together thing to appease us. They went with the hacked way because they couldn't do the right way fast enough.

That's the real rub. We had a functional L2 ADAS in 17.17.4. They then broke it and didn't fix it for 6 months. I can see the same thing happening again and burning us all. Our lives were literally jeopardized after "Silky Smooth" -- cars would routinely cross lane lines, cross double yellows into oncoming traffic, and blindly hunt on hills and crests (like blind person using a cane to find the edge of the wall). That burned whatever goodwill and patience Tesla.

When your family's lives are risked, you might have a different perspective. Until then its all on paper and you've risked nothing, so you can be all cheerleadery but its frankly insulting to people with their literal skin in the game.

 

[diplomat33]

The ramp thing, from what I've seen in @BigD0g 's video seems to be a cop out feature.

@BigD0g has a video of 21.9 doing the off ramp thing? Where's that video? I must have missed it.

 

[LukasSwan]

I mean no disrespect but I can't help but wonder if maybe people's experiences with AP1 and AP2 don't bias them a bit to always think AP1 is better. Specifically, if a person's first experience with AP was with AP1 when it was solid and then they moved on from a great AP1 to a shaky AP2, they are going to feel as if AP1 was better even if AP2 now has improved a lot since it's introduction. That experience of moving from a great AP1 to a new and shaky AP2 will bias them to prefer AP1 even if AP2 is now really good. That initial impression will stay with them.

I agree. I had an AP1 loaner for 4 months. And I have an AP2. I would say the AP2 outperforms 1 in routine highway driving and IS MUCH better when creating over Hills.

 

[chillaban]

I agree. I had an AP1 loaner for 4 months. And I have an AP2. I would say the AP2 outperforms 1 in routine highway driving and IS MUCH better when creating over Hills.

I traded in AP1 for AP2, and then had 2 AP1 loaners including after 10.4. Definitely agree with this.

AP2 really shines on hills and other situations where it cannot plan seconds ahead based off the current field of view.

 

[buttershrimp]

Realistically, AP2 is in no way 'close to reaching parity with AP1'. And what are these 'some areas' in which AP2 has surpassed AP1? I haven't experienced a single scenario in which AP2 exceeds AP1 - not one.

Both do a better job now of recognizing stopped traffic, but as we know, neither is foolproof. Here, one has to give the nod *eventually* to AP2 once more cameras are used in general release.

When AP2 reacts to speed limit zone changes by reading speed limit signs as does AP1 with the reliability of AP1, then AS won't be negatively impacted in both directions by bad speed limit data. Neither speeding through school zones nor being restricted to a too-low speed limit on highways can be confused with parity. When AP3 offers *both* (camera-driven sign reaction *and* database backup without the unbelievable number of errors currently present), *then* we'll have something better than either AP2 or AP1 offers today.

As disturbing as any of the above is AP2's propensity to cross double yellow lines or other lane markers - even when in very close proximity to concrete barriers (see carpool/HOV lanes). The regularity with which AP2 strays is as striking as the converse with AP1. This over 1.5 years after the advent of AP2, and yet somehow this is parity.

I used to think that eventually, AP2 would surpass AP1 in all areas, but now, since we're already at AP2.5, I've pinned my hopes upon Tesla's own design for a new SoC/board which presumably will spur AP3. I don't know that we need more connectivity to finally realize the E in EAP, but we well might for FSD - that's fine. Would love to see Starlink arrive in practical use before 5G - Elon might win that race, and we will only benefit as the cars communicate more and more in real time.

Put another way, when I replace my AP2 car with an AP1 unicorn, I expect to *gain* functionality until we get AP3 and hopefully not long thereafter, FSD. Nobody else has the complete package yet - not GM, not Nissan, and certainly not BMW. Ford is doing interesting things, but still. I like Tesla's chances to win on multiple fronts, but today they're still playing catch up to what MobilEye had.

I think Speed Limit sign recognition and adjacent lanes will put parity argument to rest... you already hear far far less of people arguing over AP1 versus AP2 after 10.4. I can't understand why they haven't done the speed limit sign recognition and I'd really like someone with software chops to explain to me the reason, but I digress.

Driving AP1 made me stop minimizing the importance of the function gain with AP1 speed limit sign and lane change availability , something we don't discuss enough as a concrete difference between the two.

If AP2 does the two missing links above and they do something clever like smart summon that AP1 can't possibly do, I think that will be a happy day indeed.

I am very happy with the improvements in AP2, especially the reliability and confidence of lane keeping and consistency.... but oh how I long for the speed limit signs and adjacent lanes.

 

[Doctt]

See, we've been fooled so many times before its sunk in that we've just got to see it with our own eyes. Simply displaying cars in adjacent lanes isn't indicative of progress. The ramp thing, from what I've seen in @BigD0g 's video seems to be a cop out feature. I see what Elon was talking about with the two attempts. They were trying to do it the right way vs. just a hacked together thing to appease us. They went with the hacked way because they couldn't do the right way fast enough.

That's the real rub. We had a functional L2 ADAS in 17.17.4. They then broke it and didn't fix it for 6 months. I can see the same thing happening again and burning us all. Our lives were literally jeopardized after "Silky Smooth" -- cars would routinely cross lane lines, cross double yellows into oncoming traffic, and blindly hunt on hills and crests (like blind person using a cane to find the edge of the wall). That burned whatever goodwill and patience Tesla.

When your family's lives are risked, you might have a different perspective. Until then its all on paper and you've risked nothing, so you can be all cheerleadery but its frankly insulting to people with their literal skin in the game.

Your experience is completely diff from mine. I am still on 2018.18 2 in my AP2 X. I activate AP everyday and drive over 120 miles a day. It is not perfect but much better than your experience

You may want to contact SC to check your car.

 

[S100D]

I am very happy with the improvements in AP2, especially the reliability and confidence of lane keeping and consistency.... but oh how I long for the speed limit signs and adjacent lanes.

I had over 16,000 miles on my S85D (AP1) car before I bought my S90D in December 2016. I am very pleased with AP2 but I would like to add one additional item. I want adjacent lanes with vehicles shown as trucks, cars, and motorcycles. If we get AP2 reading speed limits, and showing vehicles in adjacent lanes with proper depiction of the vehicles, we will be equal to AP1.

For those of you not happy with AP2 occasionally taking an exit, you have not lived until you drove an AP1 car when on a highway with a median and crossroads. When autopilot 1 was first installed, it tried to take every exit. It was totally useless until Tesla pushed many firmware upgrades. AP2 will still try and take a few exits, but it is excellent.

 

[BigD0g]

@BigD0g has a video of 21.9 doing the off ramp thing? Where's that video? I must have missed it.

2018.21 0fa48d9

 

[croman]

@BigD0g has a video of 21.9 doing the off ramp thing? Where's that video? I must have missed it.

That's all you got out of my post? I'll just not respond further then.

 

[diplomat33]

That's all you got out of my post? I'll just not respond further then.

No, I read the whole post. You got burned before with AP2 so you don't trust these updates anymore to be anything special. Got it! But I asked about the video because you make this specific claim about BigD0g's video and I wanted to verify if it was true or not:

The ramp thing, from what I've seen in @BigD0g 's video seems to be a cop out feature.

Now that I have seen 2 videos of the new feature in action, I respectfully disagree. This is not a "cop out feature". Also, you mispoke because BigD0g's video was 21.1 not the 21.9 update and it was not showing the on-off ramp feature.

Here are the videos:

I do think the new 21.9 update is an incremental but significant improvement.

 

[ahkahn]

That's all you got out of my post? I'll just not respond further then.

Good... at this point it’s almost troll level.

 

[croman]

I never said the video was 21.9. Reread. I hate when my posts are misconstrued.

 

[fasteddie7]

I think Speed Limit sign recognition and adjacent lanes will put parity argument to rest... you already hear far far less of people arguing over AP1 versus AP2 after 10.4. I can't understand why they haven't done the speed limit sign recognition and I'd really like someone with software chops to explain to me the reason, but I digress.

Driving AP1 made me stop minimizing the importance of the function gain with AP1 speed limit sign and lane change availability , something we don't discuss enough as a concrete difference between the two.

If AP2 does the two missing links above and they do something clever like smart summon that AP1 can't possibly do, I think that will be a happy day indeed.

The ability for summon to "snake" around your property to come find you was pitched by Elon to use the ultrasonics. This was another ap1 feature that hasn't happened yet, it was planned at some point and discussed as something ap1 was capable of, so I'd hope they don't go back on that and make it ap2 only

 

[diplomat33]

I never said the video was 21.9. Reread. I hate when my posts are misconstrued.

Here is your post:

The ramp thing, from what I've seen in @BigD0g 's video seems to be a cop out feature. I see what Elon was talking about with the two attempts. They were trying to do it the right way vs. just a hacked together thing to appease us. They went with the hacked way because they couldn't do the right way fast enough.

How I am misconstruing your post? Please help me. Are you not claiming that the on-off ramp feature is a "cop out feature"? And are you not referring to BigD0g's video which was a video of 21.1? The problem is that you are using a video of 21.1 to talk about a feature that is only in 21.9. That is why I asked what video you were referring to because it is not possible to say a feature is a "cop out feature" based on a video of a different update that does not have said feature. So, I assumed you must be referring to a newer 21.9 video since you were talking about a 21.9 feature!

 

[Axael]

The ability for summon to "snake" around your property to come find you was pitched by Elon to use the ultrasonics. This was another ap1 feature that hasn't happened yet, it was planned at some point and discussed as something ap1 was capable of, so I'd hope they don't go back on that and make it ap2 only

Well, I'm sorry but (FWIW):
Elon Musk on Twitter

For those who don't want to click:
Elon Musk "No plans for aluminum pedals. Adds too much production complexity. Model 3 will def have summon, which will get way more advanced for S & X w HW2 Autopilot & all Model 3 cars." (01:24 - 8 juin 2018)

 

[BigD0g]

Well, I'm sorry but (FWIW):
Elon Musk on Twitter

For those who don't want to click:
Elon Musk "No plans for aluminum pedals. Adds too much production complexity. Model 3 will def have summon, which will get way more advanced for S & X w HW2 Autopilot & all Model 3 cars." (01:24 - 8 juin 2018)

You do realize they said the same thing for AP1 about 2 - 3 years ago right? This was even before AP2 and now 2.5 even existed and was in reference to the new AP1 summon ability.

From 39 feet to 3,000 miles in 2 years: Elon Musk says Tesla will soon let you summon your car from across the country

 

[BigD0g]

No, I read the whole post. You got burned before with AP2 so you don't trust these updates anymore to be anything special. Got it! But I asked about the video because you make this specific claim about BigD0g's video and I wanted to verify if it was true or not:


Now that I have seen 2 videos of the new feature in action, I respectfully disagree. This is not a "cop out feature". Also, you mispoke because BigD0g's video was 21.1 not the 21.9 update and it was not showing the on-off ramp feature.

Here are the videos:

I do think the new 21.9 update is an incremental but significant improvement.

Umm, yes it does, watch the video again starting at 1:04, see how the road curves to the right shortly after and you can clearly see the Max speed changing down and then back up again throughout the curve.