2018 Leaf vs Model 3

[JamesL]

The only interesting thing about the 2018 Leaf is ProPilot. From what I read it sounds like that will come standard? I'm interested to see how that compares with AutoPilot.

Though Automatic emergency braking is standard, the ProPilot is not. It is attached to a $2200 Technology Package which is only available on the SV and SL trims. $34,690 is the cheapest you can get it with ProPilot enabled.

 

[bro1999]

The 40 kWh Leaf uses the same chemistry as the old Leaf, which means no active TMS of any kind. Lame and makes the new Leaf DOA for many potential "Leafsters" until the 60 kWh version comes out....which I hope to god has liquid TMS.

ProPilot is for 1 lane highway driving....but it's limited to 62 mph?? wtf?!

Everything about the new Leaf just screams "CHEAP".

 

[Zaxxon]

I think a more likely comparison would be between these two setups:
...
So it's really a difference of $9k plus tax difference - so close to $10k -- greater if you ordered your Model 3 late and will not qualify for the Federal rebate of $7500 -- though Nissan is getting close to their limit as well.

For myself, as mainly a commuter, the Leaf is a very attractive option. Yes, it's not as sexy or peppy as the tesla, but I've been very happy with the 2013 Leaf as my daily driver and can only imaging Leaf 2.0 being a lot better. I am a bit worried by the fact that Leaf resale values have dropped like a rock, but I'm not sure how much that matters if I resign myself to driving my cars for at least 10 years - and yes, I'm keeping my old Leaf. Though honestly with a Tesla, I'd be more likely to want to update more often once Tesla announces autopilot 3.0.

So I can't really decide...

I don't think that's as fair a comparison, as with the 3 you're getting quite a bit more than with the Leaf--ProPilot is not at all comparable to Autopilot, nor is it likely to get better after purchase. All-glass roof, etc.

But I agree that my comparison choice also wasn't perfect. Good luck with your decision! Like I said I'm going Model 3, but I hope that the new Leaf is successful and raises the bar for Nissan EV sales.

 

[internalaudit]

The 40 kWh Leaf uses the same chemistry as the old Leaf, which means no active TMS of any kind. Lame and makes the new Leaf DOA for many potential "Leafsters".

ProPilot is for 1 lane highway driving....but it's limited to 62 mph?? wtf?!

Everything about the new Leaf just screams "CHEAP".

Not sure why Nissan would send out a press release like that but maybe this guy knows what he's talking about.
Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT - Page 12 - My Nissan Leaf Forum

I talked to one of the engineers (one of the VERY few) who had technical knowledge of the car and he states adaptive CC works from zero to 90 mph. He did say there was a limit of 3-4 seconds if at a standstill where hitting the resume button would be required to start up again.

 

[chronopc]

Though Automatic emergency braking is standard, the ProPilot is not. It is attached to a $2200 Technology Package which is only available on the SV and SL trims. $34,690 is the cheapest you can get it with ProPilot enabled.

Where did you find pricing information? I searched googled and couldn't find it anywhere.

 

[syoo47]

My local climate annual ambient average temperature is 57F;
We baby our LEAF: 95+% of the time in the shade outside of winter,
Charging up to 80% in the cool morning hours ...

And I STILL see degradation, sometimes as much as 1% in a month.
The LEAF works great for us, as a glorified NEV. And yet my wife still wants to charge the car daily due to range anxiety LOL

One of the truly strange aspects of LEAF ownership is the inclination to accept the battery degradation rates as normal and OK. The attitude is in full bloom over at the LEAF forum. To outsiders who are not EV fanatics it must look verrry odd. If not for the Tesla I would be an EV skeptic.

It's a cost issue...

Yes, it is accepted amongst us Leaf owners that the battery will degrade over time. But surely you don't avoid purchasing laptops for the same reason? And when the laptop battery becomes so degraded that it becomes useless, what do you do? Buy a new laptop or buy a new battery?

When we bought our 2013 Leaf, we knew we might have to purchase a new battery, in perhaps as early as 5 years for around $6k. That factor was added into the potential cost of the vehicle. But at least in the Los Angeles area, our Leaf battery has done very well over the past 4 years, with only 1 bar loss (out of 12) so far -- and we fully charge our battery every night to 100%. My only real complaint here is that Nissan decided to release better batteries with more capacity, even with the same form factor, but designed them in such a way so that older Leaf vehicles couldn't use them. So when I do purchase a new battery, I won't be able to improve the car's specs at all -- which seems like such a waste. But maybe battery prices will come down...

I think if our EV was more than double the cost of the Leaf (say over 60k?), and the battery replacement cost would be likewise, we would care a lot more about battery degradation. Which makes me glad to hear that Tesla batteries don't suffer the same fate.

Or do they?

 

[Zaxxon]

Where did you find pricing information? I searched googled and couldn't find it anywhere.

The Next-Generation Nissan LEAF

Go near the bottom and use the Build & Price.

 

[Zaxxon]

Also, back to the 3.3 kW vs 6.6 kW issue, it appears that the S trim is 3.3 kW after all. They don't flat-out say that, but the SV trim includes this note under the quick-charging bullet point:

Faster estimated charge time based with 240-volt charging dock and 6.6 kW onboard charger, which is standard on all trims except S. Charge times may vary.

 

[syoo47]

As someone who would like to transition from ICE to EV and can't afford a Model S, the new Leaf definitely has my attention. Looking forward to checking it out in-person in Seattle this Friday (apparently the Leaf will be making an appearance at Denny Park, a few blocks away from my office). Interested to see what lease options Nissan will have. The hatchback, seemingly smaller width compared to the 3, and price tag all make the new Leaf super competitive with the Model 3 for me. I could care less about 0-60 times, only drive 5-6K mostly city miles per year, and want as much feature bang for my buck as possible at around $35k (before tax credit).

If Nissan offers enticing lease options, I could totally see us canceling our 3 reservation and jumping into a new Leaf.

I would love to hear your thoughts on the new Leaf after seeing it in person, especially if you get to drive it. Let us know!

 

[John M Glennie]

The only interesting thing about the 2018 Leaf is ProPilot. From what I read it sounds like that will come standard? I'm interested to see how that compares with AutoPilot.

ProPilot comes standard with the SV and SL, but NOT the S model selling for about $29 000 Cdn "all in" after taxes and with $14 000 Ontario rebate. By comparison: Bolt Premier = $45 000 and the Model 3 about $38 000 (base model). Longer range LEAF coming next year, which is when I may get delivery of my Model 3.

 

[Zaxxon]

ProPilot comes standard with the SV and SL, but NOT the S model selling for about $29 000 Cdn "all in" after taxes and with $14 000 Ontario rebate. By comparison: Bolt Premier = $45 000 and the Model 3 about $38 000 (base model). Longer range LEAF coming next year, which is when I may get delivery of my Model 3.

This is incorrect (at least in the US). The tech package (which includes PP) is 'included on many SV models.' Not all. Many. That makes me think they mean most SVs will simply be built with the option, eg the Model 3 with PUP. It still costs. Go build one and see.

 

[internalaudit]

ProPilot comes standard with the SV and SL, but NOT the S model selling for about $29 000 Cdn "all in" after taxes and with $14 000 Ontario rebate. By comparison: Bolt Premier = $45 000 and the Model 3 about $38 000 (base model). Longer range LEAF coming next year, which is when I may get delivery of my Model 3.

The Leaf SV is so much cheaper in Canada. It includes all the winter weather and technology packages that are options in the States. But I need something with a longer range for practicality purpose - wife driving 130-140 miles once a week to head office.

 

[Scott7]

For myself, as mainly a commuter, the Leaf is a very attractive option. Yes, it's not as sexy or peppy as the tesla, but I've been very happy with the 2013 Leaf as my daily driver and can only imaging Leaf 2.0 being a lot better. I am a bit worried by the fact that Leaf resale values have dropped like a rock, but I'm not sure how much that matters if I resign myself to driving my cars for at least 10 years - and yes, I'm keeping my old Leaf.

Let me make sure I understand. You have first get Leaf with an air-cooled battery resulting in industry-worst (and it isn't close!) battery degradation, are surprised it depreciated like a rock, and yet plan to keep it 10 years?

...And you plan to buy another with the same problem and also keep it for 10 years?

 

[Scott7]

It's a cost issue...

Yes, it is accepted amongst us Leaf owners that the battery will degrade over time. But surely you don't avoid purchasing laptops for the same reason? And when the laptop battery becomes so degraded that it becomes useless, what do you do? Buy a new laptop or buy a new battery?

Here's the difference in your laptop metaphor: For all practical purposes all laptop batteries degrade at the same rate. Heck, most of them are buying battery cells from shared vendors. Now imagine someone starts selling a laptop with a battery that degrades 100 times faster than anything else on the market. Call, I dunno, a LeafBook.

Also when your laptop battery dies you can simply leave it plugged in and not much value is lost. A car on the otherhand...

 

[techmaven]

I am surprised that even now, in 2017, the automotive journalists and especially EV centric automotive journalists don’t highlight the terrible battery degradation issues with the Leaf and Kia Soul EV. Most of the actual ownership issues surrounding EVs are still not regularly discussed in reviews and comparisons. It is almost like these people don’t own EVs at all.

 

[internalaudit]

^
If he keeps it for 10 years, what does it matter how fast deprecation went for years 1 to 9?

After 2019/20 when the 2012/13 Model S'es lose their eight-year battery and DU warranties, I would love to find out about owners' feedback on repair / replacement costs.
====

Didn't know CPO's also have the same eight year warranty (from when they were new):
Preowned Model S - DU and Battery Warrant | Tesla

 

[kengchang]

Absolutely right. And the Toyota Corolla outsells the BMW 3 series by nearly 3 to 1 worldwide. It's not surprising that people on this board are much more focused on aesthetics, bells and whistles and performance. But most of the world is looking for an affordable, dependable daily transportation vehicle. On that the Leaf and Bolt deliver.

If given the choice between a well equiped Toyota Corolla and a stripped down BMW 3 series, most (outside this board) will buy the Corolla.

Personally I do not believe people cross-shop BMW 3 series and Corolla. Loaded up Camry/Avalon maybe, not Corolla.

 

[gregincal]

I agree. Also, they released 30 cars, but not to the buying public, but rather to employees reportedly for reliability testing. It's now been 5 weeks since the 7/28 event -- does anyone know if they're actively selling M3s to owners?

That's not really accurate. They are selling not only to employees, but to immediate family members of employees. So normal people are paying good money to get the car and own it. They won't start selling to existing owners until late October.

 

[internalaudit]

^ I wouldn't either but for 200 mile or more BEVs, I would consider a Leaf, Bolt, Niro, Kona, or even BMW along with the Model 3.

At a fraction of the gasoline fill ups, the lines are blurred between SUV's and sedans/coupes BEVs.

 

[SageBrush]

Or do they?

They do not.

I also thought about your plan for our LEAF but I decided it has a flaw I didn't want to live with: in a couple years the LEAF battery will have accumulated shelf life because Nissan has moved on to other packs, and it will not be sold with a degradation warranty. I don't mind spending $30 on a replacement notebook computer battery I only expect to use a couple more years anyway, but up to $7,000 on a LEAF battery with uncertain longevity even compared to the poor baseline ? Be my guest.

By the way, that 'only one bar' of capacity you have lost is ~ 16% of new capacity; the next couple bars are ~ 6% each.
So your satisfied experience amounts to somewhere in the range of 16 - 22% capacity loss in 4 years. The sad thing is -- I agree. That is pretty good for a LEAF outside of the Pacific NW or similarly mild climate.