2022.20.9 - Tesla Vision impressions

[STS-134]

If this is how FSD with Tesla Vision behaves then it is way worse than radar. I don’t want it!

Why's Bjørn bitching about the high beam behavior? This is the proper behavior.

First of all: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/file/california-driver-handbook-2020-pdf/
Page 87: "Use your high-beam headlights whenever possible in open country or dark city streets, as long as it is not illegal."

Then: CVC 24409

Whenever a motor vehicle is being operated during darkness, the driver shall use a distribution of light, or composite beam, directed high enough and of sufficient intensity to reveal persons and vehicles at a safe distance in advance of the vehicle, subject to the following requirements and limitations:

(a) Whenever the driver of a vehicle approaches an oncoming vehicle within 500 feet, he shall use a distribution of light or composite beam so aimed that the glaring rays are not projected into the eyes of the oncoming driver.

The lowermost distribution of light specified in this article shall be deemed to avoid glare at all times regardless of road contour.

(b) Whenever the driver of a vehicle follows another vehicle within 300 feet to the rear, he shall use the lowermost distribution of light specified in this article.

Tesla isn't being "super late" at switching off the high beams. Most human drivers switch them off far too early. According to the driver handbook, your high beams should be ON until you are 500' from an approaching vehicle, and 300' from a vehicle in front of you traveling in the same direction. But I've noticed that most human drivers tend to use "if I can see another vehicle, I should turn off the high beams" as their trigger to switch them off. This is incorrect, and the driver's handbook explicitly tells you to keep them on until those distance thresholds. If there's a car 0.1 miles away approaching from the other direction (528.0 feet), your high beams should still be ON!!

 

[ATPMSD]

Most human drivers switch them off far too early.

Just because you can does not mean you should. It is called having good manners.

 

[Boza]

No rain today, but I was able to toggle between on and off.

You can see in the Controls menu if the auto wipers are enabled. If if they are you can do manual swipe and override.

 

[Boza]

Why's Bjørn bitching about the high beam behavior? This is the proper behavior.

First of all: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/file/california-driver-handbook-2020-pdf/
Page 87: "Use your high-beam headlights whenever possible in open country or dark city streets, as long as it is not illegal."

Then: CVC 24409


Tesla isn't being "super late" at switching off the high beams. Most human drivers switch them off far too early. According to the driver handbook, your high beams should be ON until you are 500' from an approaching vehicle, and 300' from a vehicle in front of you traveling in the same direction. But I've noticed that most human drivers tend to use "if I can see another vehicle, I should turn off the high beams" as their trigger to switch them off. This is incorrect, and the driver's handbook explicitly tells you to keep them on until those distance thresholds. If there's a car 0.1 miles away approaching from the other direction (528.0 feet), your high beams should still be ON!!

There are quite a few issues with the behavior in the video. Some of them:
- The car turned the high beams on too early, before the opposite car is completely past the headlights
- Even if there is clearly an oncoming traffic the car switches to high beams. That creates an impression of “flashing the lights”.
In general, Tesla auto high beams are very bad and I turned them off. Comically, I had instances when the car switches to low beams so that it does blind the Moon

 

[Boza]

I can't image how radar ever was used for lane tracking; pretty sure lane tracking has always been a function of the camera. I think the Tesla Vision now replaces radar for TACC.

That is interesting. I have used the IC visualization in heavy snowstorm, with the road completely covered (I cannot see where the end of the road is) and this thing performed flawlessly. At the time I assumed that it used the radar because there was no way for visual spectrum camera to see the lanes under few inches of snow. May be they use a wider spectrum with IR? Or the lane markings are radar reflective?

 

[ATPMSD]

You can see in the Controls menu if the auto wipers are enabled. If if they are you can do manual swipe and override.

Isn’t that what I said?

 

[STS-134]

Just because you can does not mean you should. It is called having good manners.

You absolutely should. Every moment you can. Driving is not like playing baseball or boxing (i.e. "you can't hit what you can't see"). You absolutely CAN hit what you can't see, and keeping the high beams on means you're more likely to see a deer or object in the road and avoid it.

There are quite a few issues with the behavior in the video. Some of them:
- The car turned the high beams on too early, before the opposite car is completely past the headlights

Legal issue for sure. Practical issue, probably not so much. The car was so far out of the beam pattern that it wouldn't have blinded the driver.

- Even if there is clearly an oncoming traffic the car switches to high beams. That creates an impression of “flashing the lights”.

Now THAT is the real issue he should have been complaining about.

In general, Tesla auto high beams are very bad and I turned them off. Comically, I had instances when the car switches to low beams so that it does blind the Moon

They're annoying when they "flash" the high beams like that, but I find it more annoying to turn the high beams on and off manually all the time than I do dealing with the flashing.

 

[Boza]

Isn’t that what I said?

Let me clarify the question. If you enable the AP or FSD, does the car also enable auto high beam and auto wipers? _While_ the AP or FSD is active. You have to test this while the car is driving itself. It seems that when you disengage AP/FSD the car is going back to the previous state.

 

[ATPMSD]

Let me clarify the question. If you enable the AP or FSD, does the car also enable auto high beam and auto wipers? _While_ the AP or FSD is active. You have to test this while the car is driving itself. It seems that when you disengage AP/FSD the car is going back to the previous state.

No, with AP/FSD enabled the car does not engage auto high beams or auto wipers. Add while engaged I can toggle auto high beams and auto wipers between on and off all I want. And as noted, in a practical test driving at night with AP/FSD engaged, the high beams never came on.

 

[ATPMSD]

but I find it more annoying to turn the high beams on and off manually all the time than I do dealing with the flashing.

And this is the core issue, which is personal choice. If someone likes auto high beams than good for them! But a lot of people do not like them and we need to respect that choice as well and not force them to use it.

 

[ATPMSD]

If you enable the AP or FSD,

BTW, I am pretty sure moving to Tesla vision impacts TACC and not AP/FSD. TACC uses radar for following distance, collision alerts, summons, etc. while the camera is used with AP to keep the car in correct lane. So I believeTesla’s replacement of radar with Tesla vision only impacts TACC features. (?)

 

[EVRider-FL]

BTW, I am pretty sure moving to Tesla vision impacts TACC and not AP/FSD. TACC uses radar for following distance, collision alerts, summons, etc. while the camera is used with AP to keep the car in correct lane. So I believeTesla’s replacement of radar with Tesla vision only impacts TACC features. (?)

Why does that matter? You’re using TACC whenever you use Autosteer or NoA, so the change impacts all of them.

 

[KArnold]

Tesla M3"s stopped physically installing physical radar in June of last year. Now all Tesla's are done that way.

 

[ATPMSD]

Why does that matter?

Because you need to understand WHY things work. If you don't care, fine.

In any case I am sure the radar function has not been turned off in my 2020 MS in-spite of the fact the update says it did. I noticed when driving I was still getting the same proximity warnings and the kicker is I was still getting the same warnings when pulling into the garage - there is no way the front camera could see the distance in front of the car. So I tested.

I covered all of the cameras and pulled into the garage and every proximity warning continued to function as before, so still at 100% radar. Maybe a portion of the radar has been replaced with Tesla Visual while driving, but a lot of it is still radar.

 

[MP3Mike]

Because you need to understand WHY things work. If you don't care, fine.

In any case I am sure the radar function has not been turned off in my 2020 MS in-spite of the fact the update says it did. I noticed when driving I was still getting the same proximity warnings and the kicker is I was still getting the same warnings when pulling into the garage - there is no way the front camera could see the distance in front of the car. So I tested.

I covered all of the cameras and pulled into the garage and every proximity warning continued to function as before, so still at 100% radar. Maybe a portion of the radar has been replaced with Tesla Visual while driving, but a lot of it is still radar.

That isn't radar. That is from the ultrasonic "parking" sensors.

 

[ATPMSD]

That isn't radar. That is from the ultrasonic "parking" sensors.

Thank you, I stand corrected.

“Tesla's Autopilot system currently uses eight cameras, 12 ultrasonic sensors, and forward radar to read lane lines and detect nearby cars.”

 

[Boza]

Thank you, I stand corrected.

“Tesla's Autopilot system currently uses eight cameras, 12 ultrasonic sensors, and forward radar to read lane lines and detect nearby cars.”

That is one of my major concerns - will the system ability to read the lane lines be adversely affected by turning off the radar. Unfortunately, I will not know until a) I install the irreversible update and b) drive in fog/snow/heavy rain.

 

[MP3Mike]

will the system ability to read the lane lines be adversely affected by turning off the radar.

Radar isn't used to read lane lines. (It can't see them.)

 

[Boza]

How does the car see road edges and lane lines when the road is covered with a few inches of snow?

 

[MP3Mike]

How does the car see road edges and lane lines when the road is covered with a few inches of snow?

The same way you do.