2023 M3 air conditioner using 70% of energy

[jmichaeltracy@]

I'm saying you are not observing 100 miles because you didn't actually go that far, but rather extrapolated!

By your own numbers:
Traveling 10 miles used 35 miles, a 3.5x ratio
Traveling 58 miles used 140 miles, a 2.4x ratio

This proves my point! The further you travel the smaller the ratio gets. That suggests that the high consumption is most likely overhead related. That means if you actually travelled 100 miles non-stop, most likely the ratio will reduce further.

As for me posting the energy app, I'm still on 2022.20.7, so I don't have the new energy app that shows how the consumption breaks down. Also I'm in the Bay Area in California and right now peak temperatures is 60-65 degrees, so no way will I blast AC at LO with HI fan speed for 10 miles, as that's just a recipe for getting a cold.

My wife drives over 100 miles per day, sometime 150, that is the whole reason I got the tesla, we charge it with our solar. This car was suppose to pay for itself in 5 or 6 years the way my wife drives with the free solar charging. And so that you will have better figures to work with, I will post some long range results for you, so hold on till I post more details. Others are asking for additional information other than the energy app, which I will also provide, this will give you some better figures to work with in your calculations. I also have some more questions if anyone knows -
{1}- If you set the temp to LO will this force the single stage compressor to always be engaged regardless of the cabin temperature? (This would be nice to know so others can replicate that are not in so hot climates of 110+ degrees) If the compressor is not on, then the test is meaningless.
{2}- I can hardly believe the 7KW comment from another contributor, I just realized our 4 ton home AC does not even use that much. The "running" wattage (after LRA start) is only 4800 watts, thats my whole house, and the tesla uses 7000 watts? Hard to believe, does anyone know what the running watts are for the tesla air-conditioner? (assuming an ambient temp of 110 degrees) I understand the new 2023 models with the heat pumps are suppose to be extremely efficient for both the AC and the heater.

 

[jmichaeltracy@]

Is that the actual travel time or are you just estimating from maps?

I agree with the others, post your actual wh/mi from the trip meter (which should include travel time also). That makes it easier for others to compare to their own consumption numbers without relying on assumptions the energy app may be making.
You can display the trip meter by going to Controls > Trips
For the current trip it would show display distance, duration and average energy usage.
For since last charge it can show distance and total and average energy.
Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

Up thread you already have some numbers to compare to: 230 Wh/mi without AC, 400-500+ Wh/mi with AC blasting on LO.

The only thing I can contribute is my own recent trip with no AC is 210 Wh/mi (I have a 2021 Model 3 SR+), lifetime average since I last checked was 221 Wh/mi.

Did not use maps, honestly just from memory (do we really remember how long we drive unless clocking it). Phoenix is just a widely spreadout open city, unlike most cities travel speeds are 50mph and usually only one or 2 red lights per mile at worst. So going 9 miles takes very little time. However, I found an interesting article from 2020 while searching google all this about tesla air-conditioner power usage - too bad I find nothing like this from tesla.

Case for Tesla Pilot Mode: Tesla Model 3 Energy Efficiency & Use of HVAC

How do we find out how we are doing in any endeavor in a complex machine? The need is for specific performance data that allows an informed decision — at least, if we wish.

cleantechnica.com

This article conflicts with what the service center told me that the AC was single stage, this tech says it is variable speed, which means the temp setting is going more greatly impact the power used. A single stage is just on or off and always draws the "about" same power. Variable speeds do better with less demand.
some other blogs...

Energy usage of the AC in very hot cliemate

I did some tests today measuring the power & energy of the AC in very high temperatures. It was 106 / 41 today in Northridge, CA. It used a little over 1 kW to keep the car cool. Here is a short video about it. I also did some testing driving. While I didn't include that in the video, the energy...

teslamotorsclub.com

Battery performance with air conditioner

Curious as new Y model owner. I’ll be living in Florida next year. I was curious to know what’s the battery performance like when you’re consistently running your air conditioner? How long does the buttery last, and how often do you need to charge?

teslamotorsclub.com

None of these are anywhere close to my range problem. thy are talking :
"How much power does a Tesla AC compressor draw?
The compressor's power use can be only ~1 kW at low speed (4 range miles lost per hour) against up to 6 kW (24 lost miles of range per hour) with the compressor running very hard at full fan and at high compressor speed." My losses are much much more than those figures.
I will post more long range stats from my car with wh/mi etc..- hopefully tomorrow.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

As @E90alex noted, this is more about the "range estimate" than it is about actual power consumption.

For example, it takes about 15kW to drive 60 MPH (250wh/mi) so if your AC is cranking at 5kW to fight a heat-soaked cabin (and battery), the range estimator is going to assume that you'll continue to need 20kW at 60 MPH, or 333wh/mi for the remainder of your journey. Now let's say it takes 5kW to drive 30 MPH (167 wh/mi) and you add in 5kW, then the computer will cut your range estimate in half.

 

[DuncanM]

We park under a car port. If the AC is suppose to only pull 7kw max (running all the time -LO with HI fan) , going 10 miles and consuming 35 miles, or going 58 miles and consuming 140 miles plus. How do you recommend I precondition the car that is going to change this? (please provide details, I will gladly precondition the vehicle to avoid this excessive range reduction.) We are talking a 200% to 300% reduction in range running the AC, I am not sure how preconditioning it going to change that. I am not squabbling about 20 or 30 miles of range here. But if there is something I am missing, I will gladly do whatever to get rid of this problem.

First, set the cabin temp to ~70F, then use the cell phone app to precondition the car whilst plugged in for about 30min prior to departure. After departure make sure that the AC is immediately set to recirculate. This should reduce AC power draw considerably, The sunshade that I suggested earlier will also reduce AC power draw considerably when driving in the sun. It makes a real difference on our car.

Your car may well be defective but first you need to try reasonable steps to reduce AC power use.

 

[E90alex]

My wife drives over 100 miles per day, sometime 150,

So what is the battery % remaining at the end of the day and the actual miles driven?

 

[stopcrazypp]

My wife drives over 100 miles per day, sometime 150, that is the whole reason I got the tesla, we charge it with our solar. This car was suppose to pay for itself in 5 or 6 years the way my wife drives with the free solar charging. And so that you will have better figures to work with, I will post some long range results for you, so hold on till I post more details. Others are asking for additional information other than the energy app, which I will also provide, this will give you some better figures to work with in your calculations. I also have some more questions if anyone knows -
{1}- If you set the temp to LO will this force the single stage compressor to always be engaged regardless of the cabin temperature? (This would be nice to know so others can replicate that are not in so hot climates of 110+ degrees) If the compressor is not on, then the test is meaningless.
{2}- I can hardly believe the 7KW comment from another contributor, I just realized our 4 ton home AC does not even use that much. The "running" wattage (after LRA start) is only 4800 watts, thats my whole house, and the tesla uses 7000 watts? Hard to believe, does anyone know what the running watts are for the tesla air-conditioner? (assuming an ambient temp of 110 degrees) I understand the new 2023 models with the heat pumps are suppose to be extremely efficient for both the AC and the heater.

Did not use maps, honestly just from memory (do we really remember how long we drive unless clocking it). Phoenix is just a widely spreadout open city, unlike most cities travel speeds are 50mph and usually only one or 2 red lights per mile at worst. So going 9 miles takes very little time. However, I found an interesting article from 2020 while searching google all this about tesla air-conditioner power usage - too bad I find nothing like this from tesla.

Case for Tesla Pilot Mode: Tesla Model 3 Energy Efficiency & Use of HVAC

How do we find out how we are doing in any endeavor in a complex machine? The need is for specific performance data that allows an informed decision — at least, if we wish.

cleantechnica.com

This article conflicts with what the service center told me that the AC was single stage, this tech says it is variable speed, which means the temp setting is going more greatly impact the power used. A single stage is just on or off and always draws the "about" same power. Variable speeds do better with less demand.
some other blogs...

Energy usage of the AC in very hot cliemate

I did some tests today measuring the power & energy of the AC in very high temperatures. It was 106 / 41 today in Northridge, CA. It used a little over 1 kW to keep the car cool. Here is a short video about it. I also did some testing driving. While I didn't include that in the video, the energy...

teslamotorsclub.com

Battery performance with air conditioner

Curious as new Y model owner. I’ll be living in Florida next year. I was curious to know what’s the battery performance like when you’re consistently running your air conditioner? How long does the buttery last, and how often do you need to charge?

teslamotorsclub.com

None of these are anywhere close to my range problem. thy are talking :
"How much power does a Tesla AC compressor draw?
The compressor's power use can be only ~1 kW at low speed (4 range miles lost per hour) against up to 6 kW (24 lost miles of range per hour) with the compressor running very hard at full fan and at high compressor speed." My losses are much much more than those figures.
I will post more long range stats from my car with wh/mi etc..- hopefully tomorrow.

That article you linked gave actual numbers drawn from a scan tool. You can see it is about 6.2 kW for AC with Fan 10. If it is on LO and fan HI then I can totally believe 7kW to be a reasonable approximation for peak power.

Case for Tesla Pilot Mode: Tesla Model 3 Energy Efficiency & Use of HVAC

And given the huge variation in power draw depending on configuration, it does appear to be a variable speed compressor. However, I don't necessarily agree that only variable speed compressors are affected by the temperature setting. Even a single stage compressor design will still be affected by the temperature setting. This is because the compressor can be shut down when your set temp is reached, plus "auto" mode will automatically apply recirculate as necessary for the maximum efficiency.

Heat pumps in the newer models only improved the heat efficiency (as it's basically a AC running in reverse, replacing the previous PTC heater), it does nothing to improve the AC efficiency. So I don't expect differences due to heat pump.

As for a car having a more powerful AC than a home, actually that is totally expected. Cars are extremely poorly insulated compared to a house, when it is travelling on the highway there is a lot of heat exchange on the body due to high speed airflow (a home doesn't generally have 75 mph winds travelling around it), and the ratio of glass to volume is huge (meaning the greenhouse effect works extremely strong). A Tesla is even worse due to the glass roof (I use roof shades with a reflective layer on top and it helps a lot).

 

[dafish]

OP:

Yes, I use a lot of power on A/C. but then we're doing a poor job of managing heat gain in the car and far too often taking short around town runs. If left unchecked the range would look ungodly. Personally, I don't even check the percentages for they would be non-sense. Way to many variables to account for. I look at actual power consumption/hour myself.

I suggest these things:
1) Is the HVAC consuming over 7KWH? Is so, time for the repair folks.
2) Have you checked vent temperature output? No A/C worth it's salt is going to deliver less than a ~20f temp delta. If not getting that = service shop.
3) If #1 and #2 check out then it's on you re: usage, expectation, and heat management practices. Not that I'm saying what it is or isn't, just that #1 and #2 are pretty definitive tests. It's either broken or your expectation is miss-set.

As to heat gain management, M3 and Y are heat soak monsters. Comparing them to a leaf vis a vis heat gain isn't reasonable. These get hot fast and hold that heat for a while (lots of mass). If you're not doing your part on managing heat gain, well, time to deal:
Front window reflector
Moonroof shade
Vent the windows
Seek shade
When possible cabin-precondition (when docker)

Notice how simple this got? I don't care about your trip length, average speed, etc, cause I'm not gonna talk about range or %. Talk in power consumption of the A/C and the rest is obvious.

Finally, I may have missed it: What color is your car?

 

[Lindenwood]

@jmichaeltracy@ Here is a link to my own experiment. Others have independently validated 5-7kw of peak consumption from their compressors.

Is 500-1300wh/mi normal in Vegas heat?

Anyone know if 500-1300 wh/mi is normal have ac turned down to 72 degrees just myself with no load in car. It is a model 3 performance I gun it 3 of 10 times been driving mostly side street. I usto get 250-400 now it’s upto this. It is 109 degrees out and 20% humidity.

teslamotorsclub.com

As others have mentioned, there are three basic causes of this assessment:
1) You are extrapolating initial cooling losses as indicative of steady-state consumptions,
2) You need to adjust your expectations or heat-management practices,
3) Or your car is broken.


****I would second using percentage rather than “miles.” Using “miles of range” on an EV would be like using “minutes of battery” on a cell phone. Listening to a podcast for an hour might use “10 minutes” of battery, but playing a 3d video game for 10 minutes might use “an hour” of battery. Therefore, it is nearly useless compared to a straight-forward percentage.

 

[DownshiftDre]

Could you go into Service Mode and run HVAC and Thermal Performance Test? It will run the system at extreme and really stress the system with the heat pump pushing about 9000-10000 RPM. It will be a good indication if something is off in your refrigerant loops or compressor.

I live in Vegas and all we do is city driving and dont get the same issue as you are. 4 Tesla’s in the family. However I run 72F Auto Mid Fan and am very comfortable in the car.

Edit: I may have missed the part that says Service Center tested and all was fine. I still would like to point to an HVAC system issue but not sure what else we can do here without literally getting Scan My Tesla and comparing steady state power draw on your systems.

 

[ewoodrick]

In a car that has been parked, especially in the sun, the best thing to do it to roll the windows down and get a mile or two of wind blowing through the car.
That takes the car from maybe 200 degrees down to near 110 in very little time. Then let the A/C take it from there.

 

[brkaus]

1) You are extrapolating initial cooling losses as indicative of steady-state consumptions,

I would argue that if the setting is “lo” there is no difference.

What does it do if it’s set to anything else, like 68 for example.

 

[MP3Mike]

Interesting. So then all 2023 Tesla M3 (is that your vehicle?) will get a reduction of 200% to 300% in range always driving on LO. Problem is. that is not the case, my tesla friends (mix of M3 and Y model various years) here in phoenix doing the same test - do not. They do experience somewhere around a ~20% loss in range when do the same tests, so it is bad, but still no where near what I am experiencing of 200 to 300% loss of range.

How about you stop posting the same capture of the energy screen from a 9 mile drive over and over, and actually post one for a longer, 100 mile?, drive to show that you have the same energy consumption on a long drive?

It should be really easy if the car is driven more than 100 miles a day, it can't all be 10 mile trips can it? (If it is, that likely explains it.)

 

[derotam]

Interesting. So then all 2023 Tesla M3 (is that your vehicle?) will get a reduction of 200% to 300% in range always driving on LO. Problem is. that is not the case, my tesla friends (mix of M3 and Y model various years) here in phoenix doing the same test - do not. They do experience somewhere around a ~20% loss in range when do the same tests, so it is bad, but still no where near what I am experiencing of 200 to 300% loss of range.

I'm going to try and not get too much into this one but I have two basic comments.

My comment to you is I think you need to slow down and do some more math looking at best and worst cases based on the various numbers seen. You also need more data. That picture of the energy screen is fun to look at but that isn't the best source data as others have mentioned.

Your friend doing the "same" test which I am assuming is 9 miles with the HVAC on LO with HI fan speed, and only losing 20% range...doesn't make sense. That math for 20% loss doesn't support the power requirement for HVAC maxed out on LO, fan on HI.

Other than that I'll just grab my popcorn and watch the rest of this show.

 

[jjrandorin]

As @E90alex noted, this is more about the "range estimate" than it is about actual power consumption.

For example, it takes about 15kW to drive 60 MPH (250wh/mi) so if your AC is cranking at 5kW to fight a heat-soaked cabin (and battery), the range estimator is going to assume that you'll continue to need 20kW at 60 MPH, or 333wh/mi for the remainder of your journey. Now let's say it takes 5kW to drive 30 MPH (167 wh/mi) and you add in 5kW, then the computer will cut your range estimate in half.

Yes, it is.

I have seen nothing from this particular thread to differentiate it from the dozens of other "range estimate" threads, other than the OP of this thread starting off with "dont talk about X and dont talk about Y".

 

[jmichaeltracy@]

I'm going to try and not get too much into this one but I have two basic comments.

My comment to you is I think you need to slow down and do some more math looking at best and worst cases based on the various numbers seen. You also need more data. That picture of the energy screen is fun to look at but that isn't the best source data as others have mentioned.

Your friend doing the "same" test which I am assuming is 9 miles with the HVAC on LO with HI fan speed, and only losing 20% range...doesn't make sense. That math for 20% loss doesn't support the power requirement for HVAC maxed out on LO, fan on HI.

Other than that I'll just grab my popcorn and watch the rest of this show.

Thanks everyone, my wife is charging the car to 100% (272 miles) and will doing a lot of driving today. So by tomorrow morning I hope to have added all the data you all have been requesting, so check again in the morning. Till then if you have not read this 2020 article it is worth reading.

Case for Tesla Pilot Mode: Tesla Model 3 Energy Efficiency & Use of HVAC

How do we find out how we are doing in any endeavor in a complex machine? The need is for specific performance data that allows an informed decision — at least, if we wish.

cleantechnica.com

 

[jmichaeltracy@]

Yes, it is.

I have seen nothing from this particular thread to differentiate it from the dozens of other "range estimate" threads, other than the OP of this thread starting off with "dont talk about X and dont talk about Y".

If you want to talk about BMS and Battery degradation - be my guest. But, it is really not part of my discussion. It is about, once again, how much is the power consumption to run the AC on LO, and should it drastically reduce your range if you drive that way in Phoenix - And what is the expectation for the 2023 M3 driving in Phoenix with those settings. Sadly at the end of day, I have to charge my car on an L2 overnight for 6 or 7 hours, so this is "all about" power consumption (and of course that is directly related to range). So if you still don't get it, (thankfully many on thread do get it and note there is something really wrong here - whether with me or my car, I don't really care, I just want to know why the consumption is so HI when I run the air conditioner on LO. The range and consumption are directly related, but the driver here is "power consumption when running the AC on LO", if you still don't get it , then there is nothing more to be said and you might as well not bother yourself with this thread, but for those that do get it - hold on while I post more long range results in the morning from Phoenix. If I had bought a gasoline car and ran the AC and it dropped my mileage to 1 mile per gallon, I would still be getting post responses like this - and that is why on the original post I tried to spell out the parameters of the thread. My only other experience is with my 2016 Nissan Leaf - it only goes 40 miles now (80% charge), but I still get almost 30 miles range running the AC on LO (all short trips of course), and it is has ICE cold air and the kids wonder why the new car is not as good as the old car. There has to be a electrical short or 'something' going on.

OP:

Yes, I use a lot of power on A/C. but then we're doing a poor job of managing heat gain in the car and far too often taking short around town runs. If left unchecked the range would look ungodly. Personally, I don't even check the percentages for they would be non-sense. Way to many variables to account for. I look at actual power consumption/hour myself.

I suggest these things:
1) Is the HVAC consuming over 7KWH? Is so, time for the repair folks.
2) Have you checked vent temperature output? No A/C worth it's salt is going to deliver less than a ~20f temp delta. If not getting that = service shop.
3) If #1 and #2 check out then it's on you re: usage, expectation, and heat management practices. Not that I'm saying what it is or isn't, just that #1 and #2 are pretty definitive tests. It's either broken or your expectation is miss-set.

As to heat gain management, M3 and Y are heat soak monsters. Comparing them to a leaf vis a vis heat gain isn't reasonable. These get hot fast and hold that heat for a while (lots of mass). If you're not doing your part on managing heat gain, well, time to deal:
Front window reflector
Moonroof shade
Vent the windows
Seek shade
When possible cabin-precondition (when docker)

Notice how simple this got? I don't care about your trip length, average speed, etc, cause I'm not gonna talk about range or %. Talk in power consumption of the A/C and the rest is obvious.

Finally, I may have missed it: What color is your car?

Thanks, lots of good input here to consider. Will look into and get back to you.

 

[jmichaeltracy@]

How about you stop posting the same capture of the energy screen from a 9 mile drive over and over, and actually post one for a longer, 100 mile?, drive to show that you have the same energy consumption on a long drive?

It should be really easy if the car is driven more than 100 miles a day, it can't all be 10 mile trips can it? (If it is, that likely explains it.)

Sorry for that, family events and wife using the car make it difficult, but am planning to post some longer trip data by Saturday morning. And correct, trip greatly vary, our longest is the daily round trip to take the grandson home via highway ~58 miles round trip. I will try and get as my trips but the figures disappear on me (unless you know of a way to pull trip stat details). I only know about the trips screen and the energy app, maybe there is a better way to track all the trips. For now I am just go to have the wife pull out her phone and snap shot everything everyone is requesting and post it Saturday morning.

 

[jjrandorin]

You asked how can pre conditioning help you. Since it sounds like you can charge overnight, thus the car is connected to a charger, turn your AC on remotely 10-15 minutes before you get in the car and see if you still have the same consumption.

The tone you take in many of your posts, starting from the first one, really discourages people from trying to help you.

 

[BitJam]

This is an interesting puzzle. If the excess energy use is real (as it certainly seems to be) then something in the car must be getting very hot. The extra charging seems to confirm this is real; otherwise I would have suspected a faulty sensor/reading for the A/C energy usage.

Maybe service mode would give a clue. You could also use an app like Scan My Tesla to get more detailed information about what's going on in the car.

Here is a quick video showing how to enter service mode:

BTW: the S3XY Buttons dongle supports Scan My Tesla.

 

[E90alex]

You still haven’t explained why must you keep the AC on LO? That is absolutely draining more power unnecessarily because the AC is running at full tilt constantly with all the fans at max speed. It does not need to be at full tilt to keep the cabin comfortable, even if it’s 100+ degrees outside.

With my car plugged in to my wall connector and AC set to LO, the car shows it’s drawing 18 amps from the wall at peak and settles to about 12. when set to 68 degrees it’s drawing 6 amps and settles down to 3.

Now I’m only at ~80 degrees ambient so it will take more power to cool from 100+ degrees but you are likely using 2-4x more energy than necessary just keeping climate set to LO instead of a more reasonable temperature like 68-72.

And you can stop comparing to the Leaf because it’s a completely different car. Smaller. No glass roof. No rear AC vents. Likely less powerful AC system. And especially no active battery cooling. Of course the Model 3 will take more energy to keep cool than the Leaf.