240v through the 5-15 plug?

[Aphinity]

blow up the appliance you mean...which could catch your carpet or something else on fire inside your house...and/or injure the person plugging it in. Oh, and then it probably would also have a short from the melted pieces...which would then probably trip the breaker. Don't wire the wrong voltage onto an outlet on purpose.

If your device is pulling enough amps to catch fire, it's going to pop the breaker first. I mean, I don't know many people running lines so they can charge their cars in their living room carpets, but maybe you do.

I've made my point. You want to play it safe? Good for you. Makes sense. There will always be tinkerers, like me, who want to know where the limitations are physically.

 

[Aphinity]

Bottom line. Should you? No. Can you and not blow up your house? Yes.

 

[GSP]

@Aphinity,

You seem knowledgeable and know how things work, and I am sure that you will be careful. The problem is other people can easily get in trouble when you are not around. Don’t set a trap for them. Even if that seems unlikely to you, anyone can drop dead unexpectedly at any moment. If G-d forbid that happens to you, and your home is sold, the new owner could be caught by your trap.

It is not much harder to wire per code and buy the correct Tesla adapter.

GSP

 

[Aphinity]

@Aphinity,

You seem knowledgeable and know how things work, and I am sure that you will be careful. The problem is other people can easily get in trouble when you are not around. Don’t set a trap for them. Even if that seems unlikely to you, anyone can drop dead unexpectedly at any moment. If G-d forbid that happens to you, and your home is sold, the new owner could be caught by your trap.

It is not much harder to wire per code and buy the correct Tesla adapter.

GSP

Thanks @GSP, I appreciate your comments. I agree that this is not for everyone, at all. I believe some interpreted my description of what is possible with what you SHOULD do.

First off, nobody should ever wire outside of code. I'm not suggesting nor recommending wiring something outside of code. In my case, I would not be wiring any permanent installation at all, and would never do so, without the proper outlet. In my case, I'm talking about wiring in something temporary more as a discussion point, or last resort, or re-using things like heavy-duty cords that have differing outlets for temporary, very specific situations, like mine.

Absolutely no question, if you wire a 5-15 outlet with 240V into your house, you're just asking for trouble.

 

[Rocky_H]

If your device is pulling enough amps to catch fire, it's going to pop the breaker first.

No, you're still not getting it. You are still referring to this as pulling too many amps. It's not about that. This is about devices that are designed for 120V getting plugged into an outlet that someone wired with 240V on it instead. The device will spark and POP, not just pull too many amps and trip the breaker.

 

[n2mb_racing]

Even before the Tesla NEMA 6-15 or 6-20 adapters existed you shouldn't have wired a NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 with 240V. You could have bought some adapter that convert NEMA 6-15 or 6-20

Agreed, that is exactly what I did. I converted a circuit that had only one outlet to a 6-20 outlet, including taping over the neutral with black tape so that it was clear there were two hots. Then I made an adapter from 6-20 to 5-20 to be able to plug in the 5-20 UMC plug.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

To be clear, electrically, 240V vs 120V vs 10v is no different in terms of safety on the wire or connector. Amperage is all you need to worry about. That is what heats up (and melts) connectors and wires, not voltage. Once you get into the thousands of volts, then you need to worry about arching, but that's not what we're discussing.

That's 100% incorrect. The insulation between terminals and ground, terminals to each other, and outlet internals are all designed for a maximum of 120 Vrms (173 Vpeak) in a NEMA 5-15R outlet. Further, the neutral pin of such outlets is designed to be at the same potential as ground, and insulation capability between neutral and ground is not even tested, much less designed to hold up against 120 Vrms. Even worse, some designs of 5-15R outlets bond the neutral and ground together, which would be disastrous if wired to 240 V.

There is real risk in someone plugging a 120 V appliance into the incorrectly wired outlet and destroying the device, the outlet, and the electrical system of the house.

Your statement is incorrect, flawed, and dangerous, and has no place on a forum where other people are seeking information and advice.

 

[Aphinity]

No, you're still not getting it. You are still referring to this as pulling too many amps. It's not about that. This is about devices that are designed for 120V getting plugged into an outlet that someone wired with 240V on it instead. The device will spark and POP, not just pull too many amps and trip the breaker.

Not sure what you think I'm not getting. Yes, the device will probably be damaged. Most devices also have fuses internally that would blow in the situation you're describing. In any case, it's not good, and nobody is arguing that.

What it looks like when you do that could be described in many ways, but sure, let's go with your 'pop' and 'spark'.

 

[Aphinity]

Your statement is incorrect, flawed, and dangerous, and has no place on a forum where other people are seeking information and advice.

Congratulations, you win. I had no idea an outlet on an extension cord could be capable of doing the things you stated. While none of the 5-15 outlets I've used have been tested to do any of the things you say or are built in the fashion you say with bridged grounds and neutrals or differing insulation between hot and neutral, I will yield to your demeaning, disingenuous attempt to prevent my fun theorizing in a public forum with people I thought were tinkerers like me.

Buy Tesla's stuff. Pay an electrician to do it. Don't listen to me. Clearly I don't know anything.

 

[hcsharp]

If your device is pulling enough amps to catch fire, it's going to pop the breaker first.

This is DEAD WRONG and a dangerous myth to be spreading on an EV forum. I have witnessed two fires in the last 9 years that started while drawing approximately half of the circuit's rated amperage. In both fires the breaker never came close to tripping.

I'm sure you have good intentions and honestly mean well in an effort to help people here but unfortunately you don't have enough experience to provide safe information.

There was a time when I might have followed a philosophy more like yours. I used to be more lax with my tinkering but I've seen some bad things happen in the last 10 years. It's really not a good idea to second-guess electrical ratings or assume you know the "real" limitations (as opposed to rated) in your experiments.

 

[Aphinity]

This is DEAD WRONG and a dangerous myth to be spreading on an EV forum. I have witnessed two fires in the last 9 years that started while drawing approximately half of the circuit's rated amperage. In both fires the breaker never came close to tripping.

I'm sure you have good intentions and honestly mean well in an effort to help people here but unfortunately you don't have enough experience to provide safe information.

There was a time when I might have followed a philosophy more like yours. I used to be more lax with my tinkering but I've seen some bad things happen in the last 10 years. It's really not a good idea to second-guess electrical ratings or assume you know the "real" limitations (as opposed to rated) in your experiments.

Yeah, there was a time when I liked to experiment and try new things when I was part of a world record holding race team and designed and built beamforming hydrophone systems for wild whale research, went to school for embedded programming, and befriended and spoke to project electricians on the regular about my 'experiments', and tried to share those findings here. Wait, that was now. Sorry.

Am I an electrician? No. I just do a lot of work around power. SomeJoe777 above shared some details about some outlets and wiring concerns I wasn't familiar with because it didn't come up in my testing. Valuable info. However, he also put me down repeatedly at the same time. Not exactly nice of him to do that.

Safety is stated often as the reason people don't try to push boundaries. Read this thread, and you'll see many people here stating safety as reasons not to do any of the things I have personally tested, and done, and verified through much smarter friends than I. I charge multiple times a week from a 3 phase connector, dropped to two opposing phases, and wired into a 14-50 adapter with the current turned down in the car. Wired PROPERLY and verified by an electrician, if that matters to anyone here. However, I'll be seen as a heathen and evil person for even stating that, so I haven't until now. Guess I"d better edit this doc and take this dangerous piece of info out, despite the fact it has worked for the past month without incident.

At this point, if you're dumb enough to wire something differently because a forum told you to and you catch your hair on fire and kill your puppy, am I really the one to blame? I hope we can at least agree that information is good to have, even if you shouldn't use it.

It should always be clear, if you're not sure of yourself, and even if you are, check with someone who knows this stuff BEFORE plugging it in, or turning it on if there's a chance it could do damage. Make a plan, then call someone who can verify and help you make it happen safely. I always do.

 

[n2mb_racing]

Yup, I agree it will work and it is fine to do it. I charged exactly like you said for a few months to a year.... Just that there are better ways now that the correct umc ends exist.

 

[rpo]

I made adapters for almost every outlet I have ever seen to a 14-50 that I can then plug the car into and adjust the amps depending on the source's capability. If you forget to adjust down the amps one time, you are likely gonna have an issue though....especially if you are plugged into some random outdoor outlet and blow the breaker without a way to reset it.

I also bought a 100 foot 10 gauge extension cord, cut the ends off, and wired on 6-20 plugs onto each end. That way I can get 240 @ 4kW in an easy to carry extension cord with an adapter on each end. It looks funky, but there's no voltage drop, and 4kW is generally enough power to charge overnight every place I have used it. This has been really really really helpful at airbnbs in the past.

 

[n2mb_racing]

I also bought a 100 foot 10 gauge extension cord, cut the ends off, and wired on 6-20 plugs onto each end. That way I can get 240 @ 4kW in an easy to carry extension cord with an adapter on each end. It looks funky, but there's no voltage drop, and 4kW is generally enough power to charge overnight every place I have used it. This has been really really really helpful at airbnbs in the past.

Nice! I have been thinking that 6-20 should be my goto when traveling. I have a 15' 14-50 extension right now that is heavy AF and not very long.... Also, with a quick 240 plug, you could get 240V from two indoor outlets. Downside is it is hard to find a 10 awg, 6-20 extension. Here's a 12 awg one, and it is expensive:
AC WORKS 50 ft. 20 Amp 250-Volt SJTW 12/3 NEMA 6-20 Extension Cord with Lighted End-S620PR-050 - The Home Depot

Alternately, 6-50 extension cords are probably not much heavier, already exist and are cheap, and the UMC has a plug for 6-50. You'd just need various plug adapters to 6-50.

 

[Aphinity]

I made adapters for almost every outlet I have ever seen to a 14-50 that I can then plug the car into and adjust the amps depending on the source's capability. If you forget to adjust down the amps one time, you are likely gonna have an issue though....especially if you are plugged into some random outdoor outlet and blow the breaker without a way to reset it.

I also bought a 100 foot 10 gauge extension cord, cut the ends off, and wired on 6-20 plugs onto each end. That way I can get 240 @ 4kW in an easy to carry extension cord with an adapter on each end. It looks funky, but there's no voltage drop, and 4kW is generally enough power to charge overnight every place I have used it. This has been really really really helpful at airbnbs in the past.

Yeah, that's almost exactly what I've been doing, although I haven't cut off the ends of my cord (yet). I rather like having that cord for other uses too. Just have to ensure the cord is rated to 20 amps (10 gauge or lower) and is a good, copper cord and not some cheap aluminum crap. I haven't even noticed mine getting hot. Thx for sharing @rpo

 

[Aphinity]

Nice! I have been thinking that 6-20 should be my goto when traveling. I have a 15' 14-50 extension right now that is heavy AF and not very long.... Also, with a quick 240 plug, you could get 240V from two indoor outlets. Downside is it is hard to find a 10 awg, 6-20 extension. Here's a 12 awg one, and it is expensive:
AC WORKS 50 ft. 20 Amp 250-Volt SJTW 12/3 NEMA 6-20 Extension Cord with Lighted End-S620PR-050 - The Home Depot

Alternately, 6-50 extension cords are probably not much heavier, already exist and are cheap, and the UMC has a plug for 6-50. You'd just need various plug adapters to 6-50.

Be careful with running extensions on 50 amp breakers. You need, at minimum, 6 gauge stranded wire to safely push 37 amps (max for mobile connector if I'm not mistaken) over a distance. Less, and that wire will get very hot, and possibly melt. Always base your maximum amperage on your wire gauge or whatever weak link you have. Never exceed the outlet capacity for amperage either or that'll melt quite quickly. As many would point out here, you really shouldn't wire anything permanently or otherwise that goes against the specs for the outlet. You are playing with fire by connecting a 14-50 to a physical outlet rated for less than 37 amps.

For a typical 12 gauge copper stranded extension cord, you should never push more than about 12-14 amps, depending on the length. I run 8 gauge on my 3 phase twist-lock connector (rated at 20 amps at the connector) and run my car at 19 amps with no issues or heating evident on my wire, connector, or the building wire. About 4-5kW.

Here's a chart for those interested, with AWG showing the gauge of wire. Note how much of a difference the number of strands (i.e. flexibility) there are in the wire:

 

[MN-MS100D]

Aphinity, you make it sound like you know what you are doing. Please stop posting your helpful "information". It is incorrect, incomplete and dangerous. You lack the proper elecrical background.

 

[Aphinity]

*sigh*

What a great community this is. Rather than contributing and correcting my "incorrect, incomplete, and dangerous" info so I know where I went wrong, and others do too, I'm just told to shut up.

The scientific method is about feedback and contribution. Bring on the critique. Just don't be a dick about it and hey, we all win!

Thank you to those in this thread who have done experimentation like this and proven I'm not the only one doing these things, and more over, doing so without incident, and willing to share and contribute constructively. Let's work together with specifics about safety in particular, and let's learn!

 

[Rocky_H]

*sigh*

What a great community this is. Rather than contributing and making my "incorrect, incomplete, and dangerous" info complete, I'm just told to shut up.

Thank you to those in this thread who have done experimentation like this and proven I'm not the only one doing these things, and more over, doing so without incident, and willing to share and contribute constructively.

You are apparently not seeing the difference at all, are you?
I've been helpful with answering your questions in other threads about making and using other pigtail adapters and how certain Tesla adapter plugs can be used and fitted. And I don't complain at you there. That's all fine, and people are very willing to talk with you and listen to you about that. That is good, helpful stuff.

But did you notice what it was very specifically in this thread that got people disagreeing with you and telling you to stop?
You were advocating that it was fine to go ahead and have a 5-15 outlet type wired to 240V in a house. That is entirely different.

I know you have bragged about your qualifications, and: I'm careful. I double check everything. I run this by my knowledgeable friends. I don't make mistakes.

But it's not about you. What if something unexpectedly happens to you, and you die in an accident? The house gets sold to some unsuspecting new homeowner who doesn't know that there is a mis-wired outlet in the wall. That danger is there lurking and waiting to injure someone or start a fire for someone else, because you thought it was fine.

So yes, that is why this is different. Because if you were unexpectedly out of the picture, people aren't going to dig through homemade EV charging plug adapters and try to use them, but someone might very well plug into a normal looking outlet in a house. So that is much more of a danger and a concern of doing code violations than making homemade adapters.

So this will help you to understand that it's not that people are mean or out to get you. You were saying bad things here in this thread that people were rightfully calling you on.

 

[Aphinity]

@Rocky_H , very valuable feedback, and I need to state again some clarification:

I have not once intended to suggest installing a 5-15 outlet into your house with 240V. In fact, I said not to, multiple times. Please read my posts and correct me if I'm wrong. I suggested using an EXTENSION cord with a 5-15 connector might be something you can do. That started the idiot factor discussion about plugging in the wrong device, and then my incorrect statement that a breaker/fuse would blow before fire. I'm willing to agree I may be wrong with that.

There is zero argument from me about the safety issue of doing this. Again, this is not in argument. I wanted to know if it's possible, it is, and the discussion from there went onto other topics, including from other users. Clearly I need to re-read what I posted if so many people see this as me arguing at 5-15 outlet running 240v full phase is a safe thing to install into your house. Gawd no.

In any case, this thread yet again shows examples of people posting angry 'protect the innocent' safety retort (which is well meaning) and choosing to be demeaning rather than discussing constructively. That's my point.