60 mph; excellent road markings and AP2 tried to throw the car at the median

[SlicedBr3ad]

As for the ppl talking about the Audi assist solutions, let me enlighten you on that. I have an A6 2013 right here, and I can assure you that it is years behind Tesla when it comes to lane keeping. Audi is correctly calling it 'lane assist' and its only function is to keep you from crossing the lines, not to keep you centered. It works as a form of autosteer only if you like ping-pong.

As for cameras, Audi's assist setup is similar to AP1: one camera on the windshield, radar where the foglights would otherwise be and ultrasonic front and back. That's it.

All other cameras are only there for human use. I have the rearview and the nightvision (IR) built in, but they're not linked to any of the assist features. You can get a 360-view package, but this will only result in 6 or 8 little windows on your parking assist screen. The actual active parking assistant will not even use them.

So enjoy the features you already have, Tesla truly is way ahead. Even with all the flaws mentioned.

I have Infiniti 2014 and it has tacc and lane departure prevention which effectively pro pilot. My car will do a complete stop if necessary while using tacc but the lane departure prevention is horrendous. Based on pro pilot review, Pro pilot is / always will be behind ap1, and ap2+ Tesla cars.

Confirmed that my Infiniti system is NEARLY one to one with pro pilot after reading this:
Nissan ProPilot Assist to Make Highway Driving Easier in the U.S. - Motor Trend

 

[NerdUno]

Page 8 of this thread should be a MUST READ for anyone considering the purchase of any Tesla. I've already bookmarked it and sent it to several of my friends thinking about how wonderful a Tesla would be. The grass is always greener...

 

[OilSucks]

I just had an AP2 loaner for the past two days again. And again after trying repeatedly to use it like I do my AP1 car, I had to concede and stop using it. It makes me stressed and nauseous. I still hold true to my statement made here...

Again I stopped for a moment, and thought about it from the perspective of all the new excited Tesla purchasers from last October. They test drove an AP1 car, and were sold an AP2 car, with the promise of how wonderful it would be. They paid for a car that they couldn't use many of it's features upon delivery, with the promise of parity with the car that they test drove in just a couple months. Here we are almost a year later. Some of the basic car (not AP specific) features are still just being turned on, and the $5,000.00 option they were so excited about when they test drove the AP1 car, still does not perform up to par with the car they test drove a year ago. Again, if you read my earlier post, I'm an AP1 owner, and you'll know that I thought the AP2 folks were getting just a little too worked-up, but I was flat wrong. How about the folks that paid for a short-term lease? I do strongly believe and have faith that they will improve on AP2 and surpass AP1, but this timing has gone well beyond running a little late on what was promised upfront. Especially on the non-AP specific features.

So again, my understanding goes out to all those AP2 owners, and especially the ones who test drove an AP1 car and received an AP2 car.

Oh man so well said and I so agree... I was so angry at my OA for telling me that the car I test drove was the car I was going to get, and that turned out to be absolutely false.

I am a fan of Tesla. I want them to succeed. I want them to be the number one car manufacturer in the world and I say that with sincerity. But these types of weird business practices will get them nowhere.

 

[OilSucks]

Also this thread cracks me up because I posted my experience on Reddit after a really long and tiresome drive from San Francisco to Las Vegas and all the random slow downs and even hard braking episodes and people basically told me "I don't have ANY of those experiences so maybe you should just stop using the Autopilot system."

My face when random consumers want me to stop using a 5k system I paid for....

 

[AnxietyRanger]

As for the ppl talking about the Audi assist solutions, let me enlighten you on that. I have an A6 2013 right here, and I can assure you that it is years behind Tesla when it comes to lane keeping. Audi is correctly calling it 'lane assist' and its only function is to keep you from crossing the lines, not to keep you centered. It works as a form of autosteer only if you like ping-pong.

As for cameras, Audi's assist setup is similar to AP1: one camera on the windshield, radar where the foglights would otherwise be and ultrasonic front and back. That's it.

All other cameras are only there for human use. I have the rearview and the nightvision (IR) built in, but they're not linked to any of the assist features. You can get a 360-view package, but this will only result in 6 or 8 little windows on your parking assist screen. The actual active parking assistant will not even use them.

So enjoy the features you already have, Tesla truly is way ahead. Even with all the flaws mentioned.

So let me get this straight, you are comparing a 2013 Audi system to a 2017 Tesla system...? And not even very accurately at that.

But sure, let's compare:

First of all, Audi uses four radars. Tesla has one. The new Audi A8 uses a Lidar as well.

Audi nowadays has true 360 view, not just a small windows. Tesla has no 360 view at all. Most of the cameras do, well, nothing.

Audi has true blindspot detection with autobahn speeds, Tesla has nothing that compares.

Audi has true cross-traffic detection, Tesla has none.

Audi has pedestrian detection in the dark through night vision camera and shape recognition, Tesla has none.

Audi's adaptive cruise is not ghost braking all the time.

Audi has traffic sign recognition, AP2 Tesla has none.

Audi has automatic windscreen wipers, AP2 Tesla has none.

AP2 lane keeping is terrible. Audi's lane keeping, well, that probably is terrible too until the new Audi A8 comes.

The only thing, really, that AP2 Tesla does better is future upgrade potential. That is better than Audi. But in current features, in reality, an Audi is far superior in driver's aids than an AP2 Tesla. And the new Audi A8 is bound, at this rate, to be the first Level 3 car on the market.

 

[oktane]

I'm sick of incessant apologists who think that my money should go to the nascent development of software that was sold to me as nearly complete and "adding to AP1" in December 2016. I'm sick of apologists who think that the danger that EAP has put my family in with its inconsistent reactions to repeat environments should be shrugged off out of concern for stock prices, good feelings, and "I know that they are nice people who are trying hard" bull pocky.

And anyway, that you don't like to read that people think that EAP is a joke doesn't make it any less true that it is incomplete and in need of fixing. Which is what I said.

Yes, AP2 has been an utter and complete disaster, a total joke, and an embarrassment for Elon, his directors, all the engineers, all the sales people, all the evangelists, all the owners who defend them. It's a total charlie foxtrot.

 

[oktane]

I just had an AP2 loaner for the past two days again. And again after trying repeatedly to use it like I do my AP1 car, I had to concede and stop using it. It makes me stressed and nauseous. I still hold true to my statement made here...

Again I stopped for a moment, and thought about it from the perspective of all the new excited Tesla purchasers from last October. They test drove an AP1 car, and were sold an AP2 car, with the promise of how wonderful it would be. They paid for a car that they couldn't use many of it's features upon delivery, with the promise of parity with the car that they test drove in just a couple months. Here we are almost a year later. Some of the basic car (not AP specific) features are still just being turned on, and the $5,000.00 option they were so excited about when they test drove the AP1 car, still does not perform up to par with the car they test drove a year ago. Again, if you read my earlier post, I'm an AP1 owner, and you'll know that I thought the AP2 folks were getting just a little too worked-up, but I was flat wrong. How about the folks that paid for a short-term lease? I do strongly believe and have faith that they will improve on AP2 and surpass AP1, but this timing has gone well beyond running a little late on what was promised upfront. Especially on the non-AP specific features.

So again, my understanding goes out to all those AP2 owners, and especially the ones who test drove an AP1 car and received an AP2 car.

Absolutely. I test drove an AP1 car and promised that AP2 would be "enhanced" and far superior, with 8 cameras instead of 1, and expected and was promised not only parity, but significant improvement over AP1 by December 2016, given the fake FSD video.

I was promised chicken salad but received chicken sh*t.

Because I know I am not the only one who fell for this fraud, I know Tesla will lose or settle the class action lawsuit and lose bigly.

 

[5YJSA]

s/w 17.28.4 cf44833

One of your biggest fans here Tesla, but bloody annoyed at this morning's incident, and must say this simply is not good enough.

I don't need my car testing my reaction speed in this manner during my morning commute.

Car was quite stable on AP on a well marked road as used daily in the lane next to the median, light traffic, clear dry weather, no sun glare.

A gentle curve to the left and without any warning the car snatches to the right and comes within a gnats of hitting the metal barrier.

How many times does this have to be said - if the AP loses it's way - beep and disable it, don't just head off in random directions applying an amount of steering lock that quite simply no driver would ever use at these speeds.

I held off buying an AP2 car due to the early issues and believed they were largely resolved now.
Sadly I have to say I am wrong, when it's good it is very good but there are still too many occasions when it will behave completely unpredictably and this ruins its utility.

I have utmost faith in Tesla to get on top of this, but for now this has to be another warning to all to take care and really do keep your hands firmly on the wheel at all times (as indeed required by Tesla) as you cannot predict when AP2 will lose the plot.

Also a big fan boy, but will report that on a recent road trip my AP1 Model S did the same. Working fine, then randomly swerved at a truck on my right (I was passing), seemed to "realize" the truck was there and swerved HARD to the left, toward concrete median.

I was alert and grabbed tight, disengaging autopilot, preventing a leftward collision, but I probably had not regained control quickly enough to stop a rightward collision with the truck if the car had just randomly kept veering toward it instead of correcting its initial mistake.

It's still not a perfect system, for sure. STAY ALERT people.

 

[5YJSA]

The car probably just mistook the outside barrier as a truck and invoked the "Truck Lust" feature.

Did you invent the term "truck lust"?

I ask because I have never seen this reported, but I noticed repeatedly on a Toronto-Tampa round trip that, when passing with my Model S AP1, every time (?) I passed a semi truck, the car veered noticeably toward the rear of the truck as I passed. I started laughing because it looked like the car was in love with the trucks' butts and I had to keep hauling it away from them.

So, is "truck lust" a known / reported issue / complaint here? Or were you just coining a phrase that happens to sum up my experience?

 

[Electroman]

Search "Truck lust" or just ""lust" on topic title and you will see this has been extensively discussed.

 

[thegruf]

Search "Truck lust" or just ""lust" on topic title and you will see this has been extensively discussed.

probably best not try that on Google though ...

 

[wwu123]

I'm used to AP2 diving for exits, however, this morning it did just that but then had a change of mind and jumped back towards the lane, before finally losing heart and deciding to just go straight up the divide.... Fortunately it wasn't an exit off-ramp but a major freeway interchange, so there was hundreds of feet to go before any physical barriers. But I did have to take over and bring it sharply back onto the lane.

 

[u00mem9]

the silver lining of this issue is that this thread has given me the phrase "ludicrous vigilance"

 

[Kant.Ing]

AP is no good for me because road infrastructure is no good, and snowy weather conditions. I will not choose APx for our Model 3, ever. They can (and should) keep any extra / un-needed hardware out of my car and pass on the cost savings to me. I will not choose software features for auto-pilot. But I want all the safety features I can get. Consumer agencies will hold Tesla to task on keeping these apart and available aside from AP / convenience features. So I should be good.

Road markings were designed for people with the idea of "lane keeping" by staying between the lines. Road markings are not well maintained, and often not visible due to weather conditions. Road markings are not standardized enough around the world.

If roads and markings were re-thought for auto-piloting it would be a lot easier for cameras and computers to use them. But this requires new standards and I figure it's not going to happen in my lifetime.

Think instead of a painted rail running down the middle of the lane with the idea of keeping your car centered over the rail... and changing symbols or patterns on the rail indicate upcoming changes or opportunities (intersections, ramps..). Imagine what you can do:

• "double solid line center rail" means no lane departures allowed
• "dashed left or right rail with other solid" means can can elect to change to lane on dashed side (but only if safe)
• "dashed both" may change either lane
• dash frequency or pattern or symbol change - has various meanings.. but all cars are coded to the standard
• etc.. etc... there must be bodies working on this

With mandated rules, auto-pilot cars must remain centered on the rail unless actively changing lanes.
Loss of sight of rail? BLEEEEEEP manual control, car starts coasting / light decel, emergency flashers go on.. until human takeover.

It might be possible to intermix the old human lane side markings with a new center rail system, to handle auto-pilot and self-pilot cars. However, governance of auto-pilot cars (built into the cars - mandated) would only allow operation on rail enabled routes. No rail, no auto-pilot, sorry.

I am with you. For my M3 in the future, I really hope there will be an option to remove some AP2.x cameras while maintaining AEB, FCW, and SCW. Downgrading the computing power is also fine by me. A cash incentive for such option is even better, since it's a cost cutting.

When AP3 comes, it will be another story.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

With respect to TACC, I leased an AP1 model S90D and was very comfortable with auto steer and TACC in it so that is my vehicle for comparison purposes. I own a 2017 Subaru Outback touring. The binocular camera based TACC system in the Subaru is FAR superior to the TACC in my AP1 Tesla. Much smoother and recognizes many more difficult response situations. The lease rate on my Subaru is also 1/4 of the lease rate on the Tesla (-; . Working AP, not just TACC, is a gating issue for me to get another Tesla. Until it is fixed I will wait.

I'd be a little careful trying to declare a winner between two very different types of implementations.

The AP1 Tesla TACC is a predominately radar based implementation. So it comes with some benefits, and some caveats. One big advantage it has is it can see two cars ahead. So if the driver in the car 2 cars ahead slams on his brake it can start to slow down before the driver of the car in front of you even reacts.

The radar aspect of it does have limitations especially with stopped cars, or mostly stopped cars. It doesn't see them all the time. It also can SOMETIMES react in a corner to the car in the other lane.

In my overall experience with TACC on AP1 I'm pretty satisfied with it's smoothness. Mostly it comes down to the setting used, and how the driver in front of you is driving.

It doesn't recognize difficult response situations because it's not supposed to. I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to as we're only talking about an adaptive cruise control system. A lot of us including myself don't want it to do too much.

The Subaru system is a stereo camera only solution. It likely has some strong advantages of not reacting to cars in the other lane. It's main drawback has to do with relying on vision. So it's ability to sense will be compromised in some situations (bright sunlight, rain, dirt, etc), and the older versions have been reported to falsely react to shadows. The one on the 2017 is pretty refined though so it should be pretty solid.

I'm not sure how it can possibly be smoother than AP1 since it's attached to an ICE car that's pretty sluggish (no smooth torque). My mom has a 2017 Subaru Outback with the system so I have experience with it. It's a pretty nice system especially for a $30K car. I personally never experienced any false braking situations, but I did experience some false warnings as I do with my AP1 Tesla.

My main dislike with Tesla is they don't even you any control over the various aspects of the system, As an example it slows down in corners as if I'm driving miss daisy. There is no way for me to tell it that I take corners at 10 over the advisory speed if not higher. To my knowledge the Subaru system doesn't do this, and if it did they would have some button for it. Subaru has buttons for everything. Button after button after button. God it took me forever to explain to my mom what all the buttons did, and to say when the dash indicator was on it meant the system was off. We also have this major battle over the lane departure system. I turn it off, and then she turns it back on. I turn it off because it's horrible pile of crap system. I turn it off in the Tesla as well since it's horrible.

The only thing I really disliked about the Subaru system was it could be a little annoying at how much it beeps at you (anytime someone gets in front of you or exits), but I believe I can turn this off. If it was my car I would. But, I haven't really had a good chance to full vet the Subaru system because my mom ruined the car. She did so by getting a State Farm driver quality measurement device installed in it (she wanted cheaper insurance). She also won't let anyone switch it away from the Elvis radio station on Sirius XM. She's under the impression that she'll lose it since she never paid for it, and it expired awhile ago.I keep telling her that no that's not how the system works. But, no she doesn't believe me. So no one can switch it or there is hell to pay. If you love Elvis and you don't mind state farm evaluating your driving based on an accelerometer then it's a great car. Well for an ICE car that is.

 

[smorgasbord]

But that will be a lot harder with hundreds of thousand Model 3 owners, that payed 8k for something that just isn't ready.

Is the camera setup in Model 3 the same as Model S? Model 3 has cameras high up in the B pillar that I don't recall seeing on any Model S, for instance. Could it be that Model 3 AP will be superior to Model S?

 

[rgreen]

The AP1 Tesla TACC is a predominately radar based implementation. So it comes with some benefits, and some caveats. One big advantage it has is it can see two cars ahead. So if the driver in the car 2 cars ahead slams on his brake it can start to slow down before the driver of the car in front of you even reacts.

Hmm--I am pretty certain that you are describing the AP2 system. The MobileEye, AP1 system as I understand it is camera based only. However, I stand to be corrected if I am wrong. The Subaru Outback Touring I own has a 3.6 engine. It is very linear and smooth. Is that the engine your mom has? Of course it is not an electric vehicle which I much prefer, environmentally and performance-wise, but even with that caveat the Subaru TACC performs much better than the TACC in the AP1 Tesla 90D I had and which I drove 3500 miles in, primarily using autopilot. My current primary car BTW is a Chevy Bolt which is a very satisfactory placeholder until Tesla gets its act together with the autopilot system (and quality control issues).

 

[R.S]

Is the camera setup in Model 3 the same as Model S? Model 3 has cameras high up in the B pillar that I don't recall seeing on any Model S, for instance. Could it be that Model 3 AP will be superior to Model S?

I think the limitations are clearly because of the software, not the hardware. Having a different camera setup could maybe even mean, that the SW has to be changed for the 3.

But AFAIK EAP doesn't even use all cameras, so the 3 would probably be developed parallel. At least the changes necessary because of camera placement.

 

[Davidj]

I've also had some scary moments, I'm less than a month in as a Tesla owner. My handover did not include any mention of Autopilot, its like its a Beta product and use at your own risk, in the first two weeks I had a few too many "close encounters" to trust it. When it works its outstanding but frankly I find it more tiring to float my hands on the steering wheel and foot on the brake to bother with AP.

 

[jvdsanden]

s/w 17.28.4 cf44833

One of your biggest fans here Tesla, but bloody annoyed at this morning's incident, and must say this simply is not good enough.

I don't need my car testing my reaction speed in this manner during my morning commute.

Car was quite stable on AP on a well marked road as used daily in the lane next to the median, light traffic, clear dry weather, no sun glare.

A gentle curve to the left and without any warning the car snatches to the right and comes within a gnats of hitting the metal barrier.

How many times does this have to be said - if the AP loses it's way - beep and disable it, don't just head off in random directions applying an amount of steering lock that quite simply no driver would ever use at these speeds.

I held off buying an AP2 car due to the early issues and believed they were largely resolved now.
Sadly I have to say I am wrong, when it's good it is very good but there are still too many occasions when it will behave completely unpredictably and this ruins its utility.

I have utmost faith in Tesla to get on top of this, but for now this has to be another warning to all to take care and really do keep your hands firmly on the wheel at all times (as indeed required by Tesla) as you cannot predict when AP2 will lose the plot.

My care did exactly the same yesterday. This is very fearing. Therefor I always hold my hand on the steeringweel. The car has more of these smal issue when autodriving. Braking wen cars are passing me and when I leave the highway, it doesn't see a steep curve and therefor drives full speed down. All by all a strange feeling.