7 Major Automakers Band Together to build their own Network.

Interesting.

BMW, Hyundai, Mercedes, KIA, GM*, Honda and Stellantis will be building their own charging network (Non-Tesla branded), but will be using NACS, along side CCS which I think they'll eventually phase out?

If so this may indirectly confirm that the Big 7 will be adopting the NACS? (*GM already did as we know), but instead of using Tesla SCs they'll be just building their own "stations" which is smart from a business perspective so good on them. They obviously know that there is a huge piece of the pie up for grabs in an untapped free market.

It keeps Tesla from monopolizing (giving consumers more options), which is a positive thing. After all if it's NACS that's a win win.

The Big 7 plan to build 30,000 charging stations with the focus of making them more like a gas stations with the option to purchase food and snacks etc. Going into it with this intent out of the gate is much better than what Tesla did in just putting up chargers where they could without these amenities.

The new network from the Big 7 can charge all EVs so essentially this isn't necessary a bad thing for Tesla owners.

What do you guys think about this? I was curious why things were so quiet with the Big 7, while Ford and some others were quick to throw in the white flag submitting to the Tesla throne. I get it now...

Simply put, if Tesla was the Chevron, we'll now be getting a Shell, all of which we can utilize so it's just another option (network) to accommodate the future of EVs, except now it'll come with the convenience of having restrooms, food, snacks, and drinks like the old dyno juice stations.

 

[SO16]

I'm fine with it too.. and I don't pretend that they don't get a good chunk of gov't cheese

Tesla would be foolish to leave it on the table. Ie, not lowering MY price in order to qualify for 7,500 credit for buyers, change battery manufacturing for more credits, etc.

The one difference though is I think Tesla would no longer need any of it in order to survive. Not sure about the rest of the car industry for EVs.

 

[zroger73]

I know I *should* be happy for anything the pushes EVs forward (and actually, I am), but I also can't help but want Tesla to "win" against all the legacy manufacturers. They sat around like fat cats and hundered innovation for so long. GM had a viable EV in 1996!

I, too, encourage EV adoption and Tesla, in particular. However, I don't want them to remain or become the only EV brand - they need real competition. I wouldn't buy an Android-based smartphone, but I'm glad they exist because that keeps Apple on their toes.

 

[father_of_6]

I, too, encourage EV adoption and Tesla, in particular. However, I don't want them to remain or become the only EV brand - they need real competition. I wouldn't buy an Android-based smartphone, but I'm glad they exist because that keep Apple on their toes.

True, the competition is important.

 

[MP3Mike]

From the article: tax credits will offset higher prices for consumers so that the margin still goes back to producers.

Which sounds like the opposite of price cuts. The tax credits would allow automakers to raise prices.

 

[gt2690b]

Which sounds like the opposite of price cuts. The tax credits would allow automakers to raise prices.

i was speaking of effective price for consumers

 

[SO16]

i was speaking of effective price to consumer

And it depends on the price point.

If the original MSRP was just above the 7,500 cutoff like the MY was, Tesla was incentivized to lower it. But had the MSRP been 7,500 less than the max cutoff, there would be an incentive to raise the price. Good thing for consumers is that Tesla still wants to lower prices. That definitely put the screws to the other manufacturers.

 

[father_of_6]

I, too, encourage EV adoption and Tesla, in particular. However, I don't want them to remain or become the only EV brand - they need real competition. I wouldn't buy an Android-based smartphone, but I'm glad they exist because that keeps Apple on their toes.

Ya know, it really doesn't feel like Tesla has any competition to me. There are many competitors, but they've barely stepped onto the field. Even the wealthy legacy auto manufacturers feel like start-ups whose financial futures are filled with uncertainty.

The EVs coming from legacy manufacturers *feel* like legacy vehicles. They seem to be making the same old-fashioned vehicles, just with batteries and motors shoved into them. It's like they're retrofitting their own old vehicles with EV kits. Something about that is just so unexciting... too little too late.

I'm more excited about brands like Aptera or Fisker than GM or Ford.

 

[MP3Mike]

i was speaking of effective price for consumers

Ok, I agree that the tax credits reduces the effective price for some consumers, but that isn't what you said originally.

 

[zroger73]

Ya know, it really doesn't feel like Tesla has any competition to me. There are many competitors, but they've barely stepped onto the field. Even the wealthy legacy auto manufacturers feel like start-ups whose financial futures are filled with uncertainty.

The EVs coming from legacy manufacturers *feel* like legacy vehicles. They seem to be making the same old-fashioned vehicles, just with batteries and motors shoved into them. It's like they're retrofitting their own old vehicles with EV kits. Something about that is just so unexciting... too little too late.

I'm more excited about brands like Aptera or Fisker than GM or Ford.

Agreed. I was a Honda customer, but they still don't have any EVs here. The Prologue and ZDX are coming, but those will be made by GM in GM factories for Honda. No, thanks! Honda should eventually have EVs based on their own architecture, but that's still years away.

I have no need for an EV. I didn't buy one to save money (although, I appreciate the low operating cost and minimal maintenance) and I'm certainly not an environmental extremist (although, I do recycle and turn off lights when I leave the room).

I bought an EV primarily because I was bored with ICE-powered vehicles and don't care for the double complexity of hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles. I like the smoothness, quietness, performance, convenience, and technology of an EV. Basically, I was ready for a change. EVs from legacy automakers are just as you suggested - they are designed to be familiar. One of the main reasons I like Tesla is because they are different than anything else from the way they look to the way they perform to the way they are built. I'm not hung up on political or personal influences for or against EVs, Tesla, or Elon Musk - I buy what I like and what works for me.

 

[father_of_6]

have no need for an EV. I didn't buy one to save money (although, I appreciate the low operating cost and minimal maintenance) and I'm certainly not an environmental extremist (although, I do recycle and turn off lights when I leave the room).

I bought an EV primarily because I was bored with ICE-powered vehicles and don't care for the double complexity of hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles. I like the smoothness, quietness, performance, convenience, and technology of an EV. Basically, I was ready for a change. EVs from legacy automakers are just as you suggested - they are designed to be familiar. One of the main reasons I like Tesla is because they are different than anything else from the way they look to the way they perform to the way they are built. I'm not hung up on political or personal influences for or against EVs, Tesla, or Elon Musk - I buy what I like and what works for me

These words could have come out of my own mouth.

I'm actually flabbergasted in hindsight at how long the legacy manufacturers just kept making the same thing. Although Tesla does fail at some things, it's a major breath of fresh air just that they're challenging the status quo. If legacy auto had their way, the US would be buying F150s from stealerships 100 years from now... F&I managers, pricing games, and all.

 

[zroger73]

Yep! Haha!

Yes - I agree that Tesla has their share of quirks and shortcomings. One of the reasons that I was hung up on Honda and Mazda for so long was because I HATE dealing with warranty repairs. I don't like dealers, the inconvenience, or risk of damage or improper repair.

I was willing to accept Tesla's quality inconsistency and risk in exchange for all the advantages they have over other brands. I'm also willing to give them a bit of a pass because they've only been mass-producing automobiles for about ten years. I think "full self-driving" is still a dumpster fire, but no one is forcing me to pay for that feature and I didn't buy the car to drive me around, anyway.

When you consider how different Tesla does things and how young they are, it's actually quite astonishing that they are as good as they are. There are are unquestionably some highly intelligent people working there.

Getting back on topic, I hope Tesla's NACS connector becomes ubiquitous, but I'd rather have a functioning charging station with a J1772 connector than a malfunctioning one with a NACS connector. It remains to be seen if other companies can or will match the reliability of Tesla's Supercharger network.

 

[Darmie]

It remains to be seen if other companies can or will match the reliability of Tesla's Supercharger network.

Nope. Won't happen. There's too much complexity in any other DC fast charger. Far more parts, components to fail compared to Tesla Supercharger.
Second reason is these other DC fast charging companies don't have much skin in the game where as a Tesla Supercharger reputation is well, on Tesla. Besides, they are far more experienced with customer satisfaction. Now you can do in app experience and note any charging issues right from the app.

 

[zroger73]

Nope. Won't happen. There's too much complexity in any other DC fast charger. Far more parts, components to fail compared to Tesla Supercharger.

Don't let the minimalist appearance of a Supercharger station fool you into thinking they are simpler. Superchargers are just as complex as any other DC fast charger - the difference is that Tesla cleverly hides the bulk of the charger (circled in yellow and red on the second photo) elsewhere on site whereas many other DC fast chargers are self-contained.

 

[gt2690b]

Don't let the minimalist appearance of a Supercharger station fool you into thinking they are simpler. Superchargers are just as complex as any other DC fast charger - the difference is that Tesla cleverly hides the bulk of the charger (circled in yellow and red on the second photo) elsewhere on site whereas many other DC fast chargers are self-contained.

View attachment 961437
View attachment 961438

I believe one of those circles is just the 3 phase - 480V transformer that is the input for the "charger" - other fast chargers also have those external transformer(s)

also there is a chademo in your first picture which basically doubles the complexity / stuff to break

 

[zroger73]

I believe one of those circles is just the 3 phase - 480V transformer that is the input for the "charger" - other fast chargers also have those external transformer(s)

The pad-mounted, three-phase transformer (circled in purple) for the Superchargers can be seen in this photo. The second photo was before the Superchargers were installed.

also there is a chademo in your first picture which basically doubles the complexity / stuff to break

Each of these two Autel chargers on the Red E charging network has two CCS1 connectors - no CHAdeMO.

 

[gt2690b]

The pad-mounted, three-phase transformer (circled in purple) for the Superchargers can be seen in this photo. The second photo was before the Superchargers were installed.

View attachment 961453
View attachment 961454



Each of these two Autel chargers on the Red E charging network has two CCS1 connectors - no CHAdeMO.

View attachment 961457

Nice photos!

lol that both of them are currently showing as "Faulty"

ok so i guess the initial yellow circle is the power distribution panel and the red is the actual charger

 

[zroger73]

Nice photos!

lol that both of them are currently showing as "Faulty"

Google Street View with historic imagery comes in very handy for these situations.

Yes - all of the public chargers around Longview, Texas are a dumpster fire. These Autel chargers are the newest ones. They're only months old and seem to be broken more than they work. They are the only fast chargers in the area - the next closest ones are over 40 miles away.

I've only owned an EV for 3.5 months and I can do all of my charging at home, but I've been experimenting with the different charging locations around town so that I can gain experience and share that knowledge.

There are a few locations in town that have NEMA 14-50 receptacles for public EV charging. Since I discovered those a few weeks ago, I've been charging for free.

Based on my experience, I would NOT recommend any EV for anyone who can't charge at home here in NE Texas. Fortunately, most people can, but that excludes apartment dwellers.

 

[Russell]

Let me just ask some simple questions:

1) Does demand of a product have an impact on its price?

2) Do tax rebates have an impact on demand?

IMHO the answer to both of these questions is clearly YES.

There are EVs that are priced lower than Teslas, qualify for the same tax rebates as Tesla, but few consumers are buying them.

 

[TheTinRam]

I am surprised we are talking about tax credits instead of promise of 30,000 chargers. That is a ridiculously high number. Tesla curranty has ~1,800 Super Chargers in North America, and that is the best charging network we have. EA has 800. Now these companies will build 30,000??? I guess anybody can claim anything to get in the news, but how many are we really going to get? This happens constantly with EV manufactures too. They promise that their future EV is going to be able to travel some huge amount of miles and cost very little, but those promises never come to fruition.

As a consumer I welcome more chargers, especially if they have NACS. But I am very skeptical of what we are going to get.

 

[MP3Mike]

I am surprised we are talking about tax credits instead of promise of 30,000 chargers. That is a ridiculously high number. Tesla curranty has ~1,800 Super Chargers in North America

No, Tesla has closer to 24,000 Superchargers in North America. (They are talking stalls, not sites.)