7 Major Automakers Band Together to build their own Network.

Interesting.

BMW, Hyundai, Mercedes, KIA, GM*, Honda and Stellantis will be building their own charging network (Non-Tesla branded), but will be using NACS, along side CCS which I think they'll eventually phase out?

If so this may indirectly confirm that the Big 7 will be adopting the NACS? (*GM already did as we know), but instead of using Tesla SCs they'll be just building their own "stations" which is smart from a business perspective so good on them. They obviously know that there is a huge piece of the pie up for grabs in an untapped free market.

It keeps Tesla from monopolizing (giving consumers more options), which is a positive thing. After all if it's NACS that's a win win.

The Big 7 plan to build 30,000 charging stations with the focus of making them more like a gas stations with the option to purchase food and snacks etc. Going into it with this intent out of the gate is much better than what Tesla did in just putting up chargers where they could without these amenities.

The new network from the Big 7 can charge all EVs so essentially this isn't necessary a bad thing for Tesla owners.

What do you guys think about this? I was curious why things were so quiet with the Big 7, while Ford and some others were quick to throw in the white flag submitting to the Tesla throne. I get it now...

Simply put, if Tesla was the Chevron, we'll now be getting a Shell, all of which we can utilize so it's just another option (network) to accommodate the future of EVs, except now it'll come with the convenience of having restrooms, food, snacks, and drinks like the old dyno juice stations.

 

[Darmie]

. Ideally, existing gas stations such as WAWA should add some DC chargers so they can service both. That right there would resolve the charging issue. There are some stations like that already.

The biggest charging issues that CCS EV owners come across are charging stations that just don't work. You also have these charging companies that really don't give a care or have incentive to do repairs in a timely manner.

 

[Rocky_H]

The federal government paid part of the retail price for me.. its literally the same money..

LOL Are you sure they didn't buy your coffee? Or the socks you bought? Or maybe it paid for that movie you saw. Or it could have been that Subway sandwich you bought.

There is a term that is known as "fungible", and it's most often applied to money. It means it's all generic and interchangeable, and there isn't any real tie between certain income to certain expenses. So when you file your taxes and get a direct deposit into your checking account, that's just income. There is no such thing as "it's literally the same money". It IS NOT the same money as any specific purchase. So that tax credit isn't directly flowing out into the car purchase any more than it's flowing out to pay for your sandwich.

People try to do this stuff with budgeting and personal finance too, like "Well, this overtime doesn't have to be budgeted because it's separate and is paying for my vacation." No, it's still just income. It still goes into your budget. If you want to save for a vacation, that's fine, but the overtime income isn't special or separate for any real reason--that's just hand waving, excuses, and justification.

Besides, it's ridiculous to say the government paid that to Tesla when you paid for the car FIRST and then you got that other money into your account months LATER. And if you forgot to file that form with your 1040, you wouldn't even get it, but Tesla still got paid.

 

[father_of_6]

Tesla got the money through me

Besides, it's ridiculous to say the government paid that to Tesla when you paid for the car FIRST and then you got that other money into your account months LATER. And if you forgot to file that form with your 1040, you wouldn't even get it, but Tesla still got paid.

These are two different ways to see the same thing. I tend to agree with @Rocky_H... that money went to your mortgage, or it bought groceries.

I also see your point @gt2690b though - perhaps you wouldn't have bought the car without that credit... so in that sense Tesla only made the sale because of the credit... and so Tesla benefitted to the tune of $7,500 from the federal credit.

The only "wrench" in that argument (or viewpoint really) is that the credit was available on many different cars from many different manufacturers and at many different price points.

Really, this credit was a benefit to consumers, not manufacturers. At least not directly. Presumably, you needed to buy a car anyways, and so even without the credit, one of the manufacturers would've gotten a sale.

That said, and to contradict my last paragraph, the manufacturers still benefit from the credit in that it *does* gain them car sales, and many of them likely boost their MSRP to capture more revenue since they know you're getting a credit. I mean... the credit *wasn't* a grocery or mortgage or sandwich credit... it was an EV credit... so it stands to reason that those that manufacture EVs stood to benefit from it, just as though Subway (or whoever) would've benefitted if it were a federal sandwich tax credit.

Tesla sells every car they make, even during times of less demand. However they *have* had to drop prices to increase that demand. Perhaps without the tax credit, they would be dropping their prices even more.

I hope I've helped to bring [un]clarity to this clearly unclear disagreement.

 

[Rocky_H]

perhaps you wouldn't have bought the car without that credit... so in that sense Tesla only made the sale because of the credit... and so Tesla benefitted to the tune of $7,500 from the federal credit.

The only "wrench" in that argument (or viewpoint really) is that the credit was available on many different cars from many different manufacturers and at many different price points.

Oh, really? That IS a wrench, but definitely not the only wrench. The more obvious one is this assumption that if @gt2690b hadn't bought that car, that it would have NEVER sold at all! It would have sat there forever and rusted away and disintegrated and Tesla would have lost out, because they couldn't ever sell it. That's not true. It would have sold anyway to the next person.

the manufacturers still benefit from the credit in that it *does* gain them car sales

Only for manufacturers who need to stoke demand to gain sales. That has been an issue with some of the manufacturers, but usually not with Tesla.

That's why I think we are years past needing any tax benefit for electric cars. There are companies that can sell them at a profit. And if others can't, oh, well, their lunch will get eaten, and competition will do what it does.

 

[gt2690b]

Oh, really? That IS a wrench, but definitely not the only wrench. The more obvious one is this assumption that if @gt2690b hadn't bought that car, that it would have NEVER sold at all! It would have sat there forever and rusted away and disintegrated and Tesla would have lost out, because they couldn't ever sell it. That's not true. It would have sold anyway to the next person.


Only for manufacturers who need to stoke demand to gain sales. That has been an issue with some of the manufacturers, but usually not with Tesla.

That's why I think we are years past needing any tax benefit for electric cars. There are companies that can sell them at a profit. And if others can't, oh, well, their lunch will get eaten, and competition will do what it does.

Like I said earlier.. a majority of Tesla buyers for the last year or more are getting the tax credit and the recent price drops were not possible without the tax credits

 

[father_of_6]

True, there are multiple wrenches... I worded that poorly.

Only for manufacturers who need to stoke demand to gain sales. That has been an issue with some of the manufacturers, but usually not with Tesla.

But Tesla *has* been pulling demand triggers throughout 2023, and their lead times went from 9 months a year or two ago to having a lot of inventory cars today. Tesla is definitely seeing less demand (or higher production), and they need to sell more cars because of it.

My issue with the viewpoint of calling this a "Tesla subsidy" is that it is available to any EV manufacturer. It's not a "Tesla subsidy", it's an EV incentive. It's clear that the government wants to accelerate the shift to electric vehicles. If anything, the federal government would be happier if GM were leading the pack.

 

[Darmie]

and the recent price drops were not possible without the tax credits

The tax credits were well planned to work against Tesla. That's the reason Tesla decided to do a price drop and play in this strange administration's games.

 

[tivoboy]

Like I said earlier.. a majority of Tesla buyers for the last year or more are getting the tax credit and the recent price drops were not possible without the tax credits

I don’t think we could really say it’s a “majority” of buyers.. certainly nobody buying an S or X is getting the tax credit, and I think that more people might be maximum income thresholded OUT and not able to take advantage of the full or any credit as much as one might think.

And previously the tax credit availability allowed tesla to RAISE prices (since the price increase was offset by the Tax Credit) but supply demand dynamics and maximum pricing allowed for the availability of the tax credit had them LOWERING pricing this round.

 

[gt2690b]

I don’t think we could really say it’s a “majority” of buyers.. certainly nobody buying an S or X is getting the tax credit, and I think that more people might be maximum income thresholded OUT and not able to take advantage of the full or any credit as much as one might think.

And previously the tax credit availability allowed tesla to RAISE prices (since the price increase was offset by the Tax Credit) but supply demand dynamics and maximum pricing allowed for the availability of the tax credit had them LOWERING pricing this round.

More Y buyers than anything else.. yes they raised MSRP but lowered the price to consumer due to the tax credit... Thus increasing demand and not too surprisingly becoming the best selling car in the world

I don't know what else to say.. if you guys don't thing tax rebates help sell products why do they even have tax rebates?

 

[father_of_6]

I don't know what else to say.. if you guys don't thing tax rebates help sell products why do they even have tax rebates?

I think we're actually all in agreement, just we describe it a little different. It's not as clearly defined as any of our posts have described...

Do tax rebates help sell cars? Yes

Would those cars have sold anyways? Yes

Did manufacturers increase prices because of the tax credit? Maybe, maybe not.

Did elegible consumers benefit from the tax credit? Yes

If the consumer benefitted from the tax credit, how did the manufacturer benefit from it? Are those two things mutually exclusive or not? This is less clear.

All of things might be arguable, and there is merit on both sides, but in my opinion one thing that is not arguable would be saying that the federal EV tax credit was a subsidy for Tesla. It applied equally to all manufacturers. Also, Tesla has sold an estimated 4.5 million cars in total, and the majority of them did not have federal tax incentives. Many of them may have received state incentives, but these incentives were available for purchases of any EVs, not just Tesla.

 

[gt2690b]

I think we're actually all in agreement, just we describe it a little different. It's not as clearly defined as any of our posts have described...

Do tax rebates help sell cars? Yes

Would those cars have sold anyways? Yes

Did manufacturers increase prices because of the tax credit? Maybe, maybe not.

Did elegible consumers benefit from the tax credit? Yes

If the consumer benefitted from the tax credit, how did the manufacturer benefit from it? Are those two things mutually exclusive or not? This is less clear.

All of things might be arguable, and there is merit on both sides, but in my opinion one thing that is not arguable would be saying that the federal EV tax credit was a subsidy for Tesla. It applied equally to all manufacturers. Also, Tesla has sold an estimated 4.5 million cars in total, and the majority of them did not have federal tax incentives. Many of them may have received state incentives, but these incentives were available for purchases of any EVs, not just Tesla.

I'm under the impression that the federal tax rebate is by definition a subsidy.. true it wasn't directly for Tesla but Tesla customers have likely benefitted more than any other manufacturer

 

[Darmie]

I'm under the impression that the federal tax rebate is by definition a subsidy.. true it wasn't directly for Tesla but Tesla customers have likely benefitted more than any other manufacturer

Tesla for the win! It was smart of them to drop prices to play in this arena.

But, I'm under the impression that the rebate was to pay homage back to the auto labor unions for the election votes. Remember, there was still an EV tax credit still on the books before this new one when in effect. GM having a large amount of union workers had already exceded that threashold.

 

[Russell]

Like I said earlier.. a majority of Tesla buyers for the last year or more are getting the tax credit and the recent price drops were not possible without the tax credits

When did you buy your Tesla and how much of the $7500 tax credit did you get to claim?

 

[MP3Mike]

the recent price drops were not possible without the tax credits

That doesn't make any sense. How did the tax credit make price drops possible?

 

[gt2690b]

That doesn't make any sense. How did the tax credit make price drops possible?

Let me just ask some simple questions:

1) Does demand of a product have an impact on its price?

2) Do tax rebates have an impact on demand?

IMHO the answer to both of these questions is clearly YES.

Here's is an article that maybe describes better than me:

How Do Government Subsidies Help an Industry?

Government subsidies help an industry by paying part of the cost of production, offering tax credits, or paying part of the cost a consumer would pay.

www.investopedia.com

"Tax Credits
On the consumer side, government subsidies can help potential consumers with the cost of a good or service, usually through tax credits. For example, a great example of this is the transition to more renewable sources of energy. With still nascent models of green economics, the current demand to purchase new energy-saving technology is low. In order to sway consumer interest, government subsidies or tax credits can help with this high cost of adoption. When consumers refit their houses with solar panels, the government will provide a tax credit to individuals and families to offset the high price of purchasing the new solar panels.


In this sense, consumer-targeted subsidies will not necessarily increase supply, since producers aren't being motivated or compensated to produce more. However, tax credits will offset higher prices for consumers so that the margin still goes back to producers."

 

[MP3Mike]

Let me just ask some simple questions:

1) Does demand of a product have an impact on its price?

2) Do tax rebates have an impact on demand?

IMHO the answer to both of these questions is clearly YES.

And that enables price cuts how? Increasing demand is normally followed by increasing prices.

 

[gt2690b]

And that enables price cuts how? Increasing demand is normally followed by increasing prices.

From the article: tax credits will offset higher prices for consumers so that the margin still goes back to producers.

 

[SO16]

Yes Tesla benefits from govt policies.

So too does other EV manufacturers.

So too does gas car owners with subsidized gas pricing. (Like releasing oil from national reserves and spending trillions in Middle East.)

Until all govt subsidies are removed from all industry, I’m fine with Tesla taking what they can get.

 

[gt2690b]

Yes Tesla benefits from govt policies.

So too does other EV manufacturers.

So too does gas car owners with subsidized gas pricing. (Like releasing oil from national reserves and spending trillions in Middle East.)

Until all govt subsidies are removed from all industry, I’m fine with Tesla taking what they can get.

I'm fine with it too.. and I don't pretend that they don't get a good chunk of gov't cheese

 

[father_of_6]

Let me just ask some simple questions:

1) Does demand of a product have an impact on its price?

2) Do tax rebates have an impact on demand?

IMHO the answer to both of these questions is clearly YES.

Those two things work the opposite, as far as I can tell. Tax rebates increase demand, and an increase in demand would cause an *increase* in price. Instead, Tesla decreased prices so that their vehicles would meet the tax credit requirements.

I'm not actually sure what we're disagreeing about anymore. ... but hey, it's all in good fun anyway.

I know I *should* be happy for anything that pushes EVs forward (and actually, I am), but I also can't help but want Tesla to "win" against all the legacy manufacturers. They sat around like fat cats and hindered innovation for so long. GM had a viable EV in 1996!