I'm the same way, and had the same concern because I hardly ever see the visual one. But, then I came across the post describing the visual notification is going to be different. That it's going to flash where it's more prominent. So it's likely not going to be as hard to miss for those of us that barely glance at the IC. Hopefully they'll also adjust the sensitivity of it so it works better for those of us who have a hand at the wheel.
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8.0
- Thread starter Sir Guacamolaf
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I'm the same way, and had the same concern because I hardly ever see the visual one. But, then I came across the post describing the visual notification is going to be different. That it's going to flash where it's more prominent. So it's likely not going to be as hard to miss for those of us that barely glance at the IC. Hopefully they'll also adjust the sensitivity of it so it works better for those of us who have a hand at the wheel.
green1
Active Member
And yet all the people saying that this will suck are likely still going to upgrade.
Considering people are willing to take whatever Tesla decides to give them, regardless of if they like it or not, why would Tesla change anything?
Considering people are willing to take whatever Tesla decides to give them, regardless of if they like it or not, why would Tesla change anything?
Yet they do. That is interesting. One of the reasons might be because whatever firmware they release is the same firmware that's built into their new vehicles, and they have to worry about new vehicle sales. Another might be that they actually want to improve the software and the experience, though I don't suspect you subscribe to that particular theory.
You specifically should understand that people upgrade (or don't) because there's a value proposition. Maybe they just don't want to deal with declining the upgrades. Maybe they don't want to deal with the Service Centers asking them to upgrade. Or maybe they actually like the new features or UI. Personally, I don't identify with a firmware version or feature set enough to care. At least not yet. I mean, it's an electric car. That's kind of the whole reason I'm here.
Yet they do. That is interesting. One of the reasons might be because whatever firmware they release is the same firmware that's built into their new vehicles, and they have to worry about new vehicle sales. Another might be that they actually want to improve the software and the experience, though I don't suspect you subscribe to that particular theory.
You specifically should understand that people upgrade (or don't) because there's a value proposition. Maybe they just don't want to deal with declining the upgrades. Maybe they don't want to deal with the Service Centers asking them to upgrade. Or maybe they actually like the new features or UI. Personally, I don't identify with a firmware version or feature set enough to care. At least not yet. I mean, it's an electric car. That's kind of the whole reason I'm here.
For me it comes down to lots of things.
With the 7.1 limitations I agreed with the logic that Green1 had. I still upgraded simply because it didn't impact me, and V7.1 had a feature absolutely critical for me.
With 8.0 I believe the added limitations were a necessity due to market pressures, and regulatory elements. In the US we tend to have unregulated markets until something happens, and there is a push to clamp down. The NHTSA tends to work with manufactures directly to "push" them in a certain direction without any official regulation. So with 8.0 I do cut Tesla some slack, and accept the new limitations even though I think it's a poor solution. But, its all Tesla really had to work with. I'm also upgrading because 8.0 offers new features, and I'm a huge proponent of AEB systems. So it would be pretty hypocritical of me not to upgrade to help the push to improve them. While 8.0 won't improve AEB that much it lays the ground work for a much improved AEB system in 8.1.
In addition part of the spirit of this car is the excitement with upgradability's. Why would I allow a feature I honestly don't care THAT much about to ruin the excitement of owning it. If I wanted just a plain old regular car that never updated I would have gotten something else.
In terms of right to repair, and the right to own I'm with Green1. I wish him luck with he's trying to do with his own car, and I do believe LONG term it will be really important to Tesla owners. At some point hopefully will have more control over our OWN cars, but I still understand what Tesla is facing as a company.
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green1
Active Member
I'm likely coming to my rescue, but I've seen little enough reason to help anyone else on here...
Why do you say that? Tesla has said that there are huge improvements to AEB in 8.0, and I didn't see any mention of additional improvements being held until 8.1. (The only mention of 8.1 is the ability for AP to automatically take an exit when using the Nav system.)
There were improvement to AEB, but what I was looking for won't happen till 8.1
My understanding of it is 8.0 will enable more data from the Radar, but the car will react to it passively. This data will be used for the fleet learning white list.
Then with 8.1 the car will start reacting to this data without validating it with the camera sensor.
So that's why 8.0 and 8.1 are talked about in the same post. At least that's my take on it. They're trying something so incredibly different than what's done today that it needs the time at 8.0 to prove out before unleashing it.
Here is how I see things unfolding.
V 8.0 gets released with AP improvements and with Spotify along with a bunch of other improvements.
This satisfies the needs to get the NHTSA off their back, and gets the media off their back. It also gives them a fleet of cars that will give them critical data for future hardware upgrades that will include more radar sensors.
Tesla does a hardware refresh that switches the Tegra 4 out for an NVidia TK1 for the infotainment system, and introduces the tricamera that they already have the wiring harness for in cars shipping today.
This will surprise everyone because everyone assumes that Tesla is all about Radars. The problem is you just can't escape how good image based DNN systems can be.
V 8.1 gets released that support the tricamera, and has upgraded nav capabilities.
Then sometime much later Tesla introduces a more complete HW update with extra radars
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Nope, you aren't reading it correctly. Look at the blog post again the only mention of 8.1 is: "Will take highway exit if indicator on (8.0) or if nav system active (8.1). Available in the United States initially"
Here is what Elon said about 8.0 and the new AEB whitelisting: "This is where fleet learning comes in handy. Initially, the vehicle fleet will take no action except to note the position of road signs, bridges and other stationary objects, mapping the world according to radar. The car computer will then silently compare when it would have braked to the driver action and upload that to the Tesla database. If several cars drive safely past a given radar object, whether Autopilot is turned on or off, then that object is added to the geocoded whitelist."
So the best AEB starts happening after several Teslas with AP hardware have travelled a section of road without an accident. That could happen in less than a day on heavily travelled roads.
There is no mention of that waiting until 8.1 is released. But even so there are significant AEB improvements that you get as soon as you install 8.0.
CHG-ON
Still in love after all these miles
I have been thinking the same for quite some time.
I really want a better interface: a nav that REALLY works and more options for mundane things like the the driver setting and many others. The fact that every time I change from one driver setting to another, I have to reset EVERYTHING except the damn seat and wheel position drives me crazy! It's easier to just adjust to seat and wheel position than it is to hit the memory and then have to adjust temp, display brightness, display choice, blah blah.
I get the concept. But the execution has turned out to not work so well.
Oh...and not to mention the almost impossible to adjust audio settings while driving. Though I just did!
I'll temper this by saying that I really do understand that they have many more critical SW issues that they are dealing with right now: AP, driving dynamics, systems management. But, when you get right down to it for a user, it's the interface and user functionality that we all feel on a daily basis.
I think they need to invest in a few more SW engineers to work on usability. It can't cost that much in the grand scheme.
Coming from years in SW, usability is absolutely everything. Blow it and you lose.
But, why even mention 8.1? Was that worth mentioning just for how it takes the highway exit? Now I'm not saying your direct interpretation is wrong. I simply don't feel as if it's anything that will happen soon. False positives present a huge safety issue. I'm not even entirely certain they know for certain that this will work. It kinda feels experimental for now. It's an extremely exciting change when/if it happens and I'm excited by it.
As to other AEB improvements they did make some really nice changes. I didn't mean to come across that they weren't relevant. But, just that they weren't the big on. The one that I think will help a lot is that the AEB will remain active even when the user is braking. There have been cases where the car didn't brake because the user was, but it wasn't enough. That change is extremely important itself.
Why do you think it won't happen soon? They have been testing this with lots of EAP drivers already, so it is likely that a lot of routes already have the whitelisting complete so full featured AEB will be active for those roads/routes as soon as 8.0 is installed in a car. I can't imagine they announced this feature without testing it first, especially when they say it will be shipping in 1-2 weeks.
I'm sure they mentioned the 8.1 update just to let people know that the Nav integration is coming soon.
It could be that I'm reading it that way because that's how I want it to be. I want lots of testing plus a clear differentiation between the old way of using the camera sensor plus confirmation from the radar versus trusting the radar by itself.
I think it's a bit of a consent issue as well. Right now my car has zero if any false positives. I haven't experienced a single AEB false positive in >20K miles. I do get a few false positives from tacc occasionally. AEB is always active unless you turn it off every time you use your car. It's not like AP where you're consenting to it every time you use it.
AEB to me is orders and orders of magnitudes more important in getting it right than AP.
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I'm probably going to get a lot of crap for this comment and truly, I mean this in the nicest, most non-personal way possible, but I think the fact that so many people are complaining about having to simply rest their hand on the steering wheel of their non-autonomous vehicle is exactly the reason Tesla has to implement this nanny in the first place. I'd argue that those of you complaining the most are probably the ones that need this the most. And actually that's not even an argument I need to make since Tesla basically said that it's the "expert" users that are the worst offenders. And I'll throw myself in with the lot. I too abuse this and I do it while I know I shouldn't be doing it.
I've been here for the better part of a year and have watched people moan incessantly about needing to hold their steering wheel. I don't get it. Your hands should be on the wheel either way. Your vehicle is not autonomous.
Am I the only one that doesn't feel like AutoPilot loses anything if my hand is on the wheel?
I'm going to go prep myself for the barrage of dislike votes this post gets.
I've been here for the better part of a year and have watched people moan incessantly about needing to hold their steering wheel. I don't get it. Your hands should be on the wheel either way. Your vehicle is not autonomous.
Am I the only one that doesn't feel like AutoPilot loses anything if my hand is on the wheel?
I'm going to go prep myself for the barrage of dislike votes this post gets.
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The way I see it, no matter how much you improve the autopilot software, without additional hardware, the end result is the same - you need to remain in charge.
So given that we cannot change that, at this point, I'd rather see tesla invest in other much needed and way overdue software improvements.
So given that we cannot change that, at this point, I'd rather see tesla invest in other much needed and way overdue software improvements.
GlmnAlyAirCar
Active Member
You keep missing the point. Those of us complaining of the nag DO keep our hands on the wheel. One more time, hand ARE ON THE WHEEL. I'll say it again so there is no ambiguity, the argument here is that our HANDS ARE ON THE WHEEL and OUR EYES ARE OUTSIDE. Understand?
The problem is that there is not enough torque on the wheel and that, since we are looking outside, like every good driver should do, it is easy to miss the visual nag when it comes on. Why would I be looking at the IC? I am looking at traffic and road conditions.
Am in clear?
Isn't there also an audible notification that goes with visual notification on the IC?
GlmnAlyAirCar
Active Member
Rather than down vote you, I thought your post merited a reply:
When I'm flying our small plane (another non-autonomous vehicle) using autopilot, I'm always prepared to hit the big red OFF disconnect button at all times (and have had to quickly do so when encountering other aircraft traffic, navigation issues that cause the autopilot to make unexpected moves, weather upsets, etc.). It's the pilot's responsibility to know when to safely have the plane "steer" itself using autopilot vs. hand-flying the plane using the flight controls (yoke/stick and rudder pedals).
This means that I can't take a nap, watch a movie, or stop taking seriously my role as pilot in command of the aircraft just because the plane is currently on autopilot. No government regulators, the FAA, or aircraft manufacturers have ever forced on pilots a system that automatically disconnects the autopilot -- or nags the pilot -- if the plane doesn't sense the pilot applying a force to the flight controls every couple of minutes. This despite aircraft design/operation/maintenance being FAR MORE regulated than automobiles, and aircraft manufacturers routinely being hit with lawsuits after airplane crashes. There have certainly been airplane accidents and fatalities caused by pilots misusing autopilots, yet nobody in their right mind would ever require the kinds of restrictions to "hold the wheel" being implemented by automobile manufacturers. (Note that one aircraft manufacturer recently introduced a system to detect pilot incapacitation due to hypoxia -- lack of O2 when flying unpressurized aircraft at high altitudes -- that will use the autopilot to descend below 10,000 feet if the pilot hasn't touched the controls within 15 minutes. But the pilot can turn this system on or off to maintain complete aircraft control.)
Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Why can't I decide when it's appropriate to have my Tesla steer itself just because one driver was apparently watching a Harry Potter movie on his portable player and killed himself?
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