8.0

[WannabeOwner]

if you transition to an aircraft with an autopilot (which most planes have), you undoubtedly will get trained in how to use it before you can fly the plane.

I was hoping that there might be something in Aviation that could suggest a solution for Automobiles. I don't suppose that some top-up tuition / training is the answer (too expensive), although (taking your point) Insurance companies could require it and some high performance ICE marques have included a performance driving course ... there is so much tech in modern life, and the rate of change is so fast, that solutions to education could do with being improved. Maybe manufacturer videos are the only obvious answer ...

 

[green1]

I was hoping that there might be something in Aviation that could suggest a solution for Automobiles. I don't suppose that some top-up tuition / training is the answer (too expensive), although (taking your point) Insurance companies could require it and some high performance ICE marques have included a performance driving course ... there is so much tech in modern life, and the rate of change is so fast, that solutions to education could do with being improved. Maybe manufacturer videos are the only obvious answer ...

There is a solution that has been in use for a long time in aircraft that could greatly help in automobiles.
The willingness to investigate an incident and declare the fault to be "pilot error"

As long as people refuse to take accountability for their actions, and as long as people blame the manufacturer when the driver does something incredibly stupid, we're doomed to never be allowed actual progress.

 

[WannabeOwner]

investigate an incident and declare the fault to be "pilot error"

Isn't that something the police can do? Over here we have various levels of seriousness from "Driving without due care and attention" (usually some points and/or a fine) through "Dangerous driving" (likely to lose your license for a period e.g. 12 months) to "Causing death by dangerous driving" (likely to result in a custodial sentence)

My side-interest is in the best way of getting decent education to drivers so they are in the best position to, as you rightly say, "take accountability for their actions"

 

[green1]

The police can do, but so far as soon as someone engages autopilot it seems the world is far too eager to completely ignore whatever idiotic thing the driver might do next. And with no good reason, it's perfectly clear that the driver is still 100% in control, and as such there has NEVER been an autopilot caused collision, at this level it's not even possible for there to be one.

So why do we see them in the media? it's driver error. And Tesla is going about this all wrong, they need to stop admitting fault when they have none, and start fighting back, calling out the idiots, and standing their ground.

 

[Wuggado?]

I would only add that when in autopilot the driver, in addition to the road, should be paying attention to your instrument cluster and audible/visible warning sounds.

Agreed, if for no other reason than it pays to know whether your auto steering is keying on the car in front of you, or the lane lines. There are subtle differences, especially when the car in front of you does something unexpected.

 

[Mike K]

You keep missing the point. Those of us complaining of the nag DO keep our hands on the wheel. One more time, hand ARE ON THE WHEEL. I'll say it again so there is no ambiguity, the argument here is that our HANDS ARE ON THE WHEEL and OUR EYES ARE OUTSIDE. Understand?

I don't keep missing any point. My post was the first I made in this thread.

Rather than down vote you, I thought your post merited a reply:

When I'm flying our small plane (another non-autonomous vehicle) using autopilot, I'm always prepared to hit the big red OFF disconnect button at all times (and have had to quickly do so when encountering other aircraft traffic, navigation issues that cause the autopilot to make unexpected moves, weather upsets, etc.). It's the pilot's responsibility to know when to safely have the plane "steer" itself using autopilot vs. hand-flying the plane using the flight controls (yoke/stick and rudder pedals).

This means that I can't take a nap, watch a movie, or stop taking seriously my role as pilot in command of the aircraft just because the plane is currently on autopilot. No government regulators, the FAA, or aircraft manufacturers have ever forced on pilots a system that automatically disconnects the autopilot -- or nags the pilot -- if the plane doesn't sense the pilot applying a force to the flight controls every couple of minutes. This despite aircraft design/operation/maintenance being FAR MORE regulated than automobiles, and aircraft manufacturers routinely being hit with lawsuits after airplane crashes. There have certainly been airplane accidents and fatalities caused by pilots misusing autopilots, yet nobody in their right mind would ever require the kinds of restrictions to "hold the wheel" being implemented by automobile manufacturers. (Note that one aircraft manufacturer recently introduced a system to detect pilot incapacitation due to hypoxia -- lack of O2 when flying unpressurized aircraft at high altitudes -- that will use the autopilot to descend below 10,000 feet if the pilot hasn't touched the controls within 15 minutes. But the pilot can turn this system on or off to maintain complete aircraft control.)

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Why can't I decide when it's appropriate to have my Tesla steer itself just because one driver was apparently watching a Harry Potter movie on his portable player and killed himself?

Unless your plane has other planes within feet of it at all times and routinely encounters situations where not paying attention would result in you running off the road then that is probably the poorest comparison I can imagine anyone making. I don't know why people so routinely compare Autopilot to a plane's autopilot. I can appreciate the comparison in theory but in practice the two share little more than a name. My father is a pilot and I've been around planes my entire childhood. You run into exponentially less obstacles in the air than on a road. A plane isn't routinely stopping short in front of you in the air. And if your Autopilot disengages you aren't going to run off the road. I hope I don't have to explain all the situations that can occur on the ground that don't in the air.

That said, thanks for responding instead of just down voting. I happen to passionately disagree with your argument though.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Dear Green1,

Please stop disliking things. We get the message.

 

[S100D]

Rather than down vote you, I thought your post merited a reply:

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Why can't I decide when it's appropriate to have my Tesla steer itself just because one driver was apparently watching a Harry Potter movie on his portable player and killed himself?

I am a pilot also with 3,700 hours of Pilot In Command, CFII in airplane and helicopters, ATP, etc. The biggest difference between the autopilot in a car and an airplane is that 95% of the time except for landing and taking off, you do not have an airplane 5 feet to the left/right of you or 75 feet in front of you while you are driving 55-75 mph. Driving has always been more dangerous than flying and always will be.

There was another Tesla owner that got in the back seat of the Model S and took a video while the car was driving down a highway with no one in the driver's seat. This is one of the first reasons that the nag was added.

Until we have a fully autonomous car, and we continue to have idiots watching a movie or sitting in the back seat, Tesla will have to force us to maintain control of the car. Originally I was not happy with having to keep a hand on the wheel, but the autopilot has improved greatly over when it was first introduced that I am ok with it now.

Until we have a fully autonomous car, the nag feature is not going to go away so you have a few choices:

• Accept the nag feature and apply enough pressure on the steering wheel so you do not get warning message or
• Don't use the autopilot feature

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Tesla is going about this all wrong, they need to stop admitting fault when they have none, and start fighting back, calling out the idiots, and standing their ground.

I'm highly supportive of the Soup Nazi style of business. Where you don't cater to stupid in any form or function. I think it works well for some kind of businesses especially of the service variety like Uber.

But, it doesn't work out so well for Tesla.

The media is already at the point where the attitude of Elon Musk is seen as being bit of an Egomaniac. Hell they've even compared him with Trump. Where they see him as being someone who does what he wants with really questionable statistics to back it up.

For Tesla to ignore the media would lead to a feeding frenzy, and that's not good for survivability. The cash flow of Tesla is enormous, and they simply can't afford any major drop in sales. They can't allow a perception problem to fester. Look at what happened to Audi with the unintended acceleration when it wasn't there fault at all. It pretty much killed them for all practical purposes for a long time.

Tesla needed to do something. They needed to do something that would signal to the media and to the NHTSA that they were doing something to address the problem. Both you, and I agree that there really wasn't a problem. That AP is a driving assist package and it's not at all meant as self driving. We both agree in principal that we should take responsibility on the road. But, the way we see it is NOT how the general population see's it and certainly not the NHTSA.

We live in a world where perception is 90% of the game. Tesla has more pre-sold cars than the number of cars it's actually sold in it's entire life.

So you do something to change the perception. You impose limitations which you and I know are silly, but the general population doesn't. They somehow for whatever twisted logic seem to believe that having your hand on a wheel somehow means you're in control.

They also will believe lots of techno mumble jumble which is what the new Radar stuff is until it's proven out. I do remain optimistically hopeful that it will prevent the accidents of the stupids where some driver allowed their Tesla to crash into a stalled vehicle because they somehow thought the car would stop automatically.

It's also important to keep in mind that this "event" is a tiny fraction of time in the big scheme of things. All this will be over and done with within 6-12 months.

I'm going to upgrade to ride the ride and see where it goes.

You likely won't and that's fine because it's your choice.

 

[Electroman]

Mr Green1: please dislike my posts all you want. I like it.

 

[S100D]

To pass their Private Pilot checkride with an examiner, pilots must be trained to operate every system within the aircraft because the examiner may ask the pilot to demonstrate any system, including the autopilot. This is especially true for more advanced Instrument Rating checkrides, where demonstrated use of the autopilot is expected because it contributes to safer operation of the aircraft during instrument conditions where the pilot can't see anything out the window. Use of the autopilot frees up pilot mental capacity so the pilot can focus more on navigation, radios, and situational awareness -- rather than manually operating the flight controls to keep the wings level or to maintain a heading.

(BTW, I'm also a flight instructor CFI/CFII/MEI)

Fortunately I read the last line before I sent this message.... So you are a flight instructor.... Hmmm.... most of what you are saying above is not true.

If I send a student to an FAA examiner for a private pilot checkride in a Cessna 152, that aircraft does not have an autopilot and if the person passes the oral and flight exam they get their private pilot's certificate without knowing anything about an autopilot. If I send an instrument student to a FAA examiner for a instrument checkride, the examiner will not allow the pilot to use the autopilot even if the aircraft has one. The pilot must fly the aircraft by hand and use the instruments to fly the approaches. Autopilots can fail, need I say more. I took an multi-engine ATP checkride and did not have to show the examiner the use of an autopilot.

I recommend that we stop talking about airplanes and the nag feature. Tesla is not going to remove the nag feature, so it you are not happy with it, I recommend that you sell your Tesla and buy another car with autopilot that does not nag you to hold the steering wheel.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

I don't keep missing any point. My post was the first I made in this thread.



Unless your plane has other planes within feet of it at all times and routinely encounters situations where not paying attention would result in you running off the road then that is probably the poorest comparison I can imagine anyone making. I don't know why people so routinely compare Autopilot to a plane's autopilot. I can appreciate the comparison in theory but in practice the two share little more than a name. My father is a pilot and I've been around planes my entire childhood. You run into exponentially less obstacles in the air than on a road. A plane isn't routinely stopping short in front of you in the air. And if your Autopilot disengages you aren't going to run off the road. I hope I don't have to explain all the situations that can occur on the ground that don't in the air.

That said, thanks for responding instead of just down voting. I happen to passionately disagree with your argument though.

Again, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a pilot. I flew professionally as an airline pilot for ten years and continue to be an active flight instructor.

I can't make any sense of your rebuttal. When did I compare the tesla autopilot to that of an airplane? How did airplanes enter the argument at all?

 

[SomeJoe7777]

I'm highly supportive of the Soup Nazi style of business.

 

[msnow]

Again, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a pilot. I flew professionally as an airline pilot for ten years and continue to be an active flight instructor.

I can't make any sense of your rebuttal. When did I compare the tesla autopilot to that of an airplane? How did airplanes enter the argument at all?

Posts #120 and #122

 

[auger]

I don't keep missing any point. My post was the first I made in this thread.



Unless your plane has other planes within feet of it at all times and routinely encounters situations where not paying attention would result in you running off the road then that is probably the poorest comparison I can imagine anyone making. I don't know why people so routinely compare Autopilot to a plane's autopilot. I can appreciate the comparison in theory but in practice the two share little more than a name. My father is a pilot and I've been around planes my entire childhood. You run into exponentially less obstacles in the air than on a road. A plane isn't routinely stopping short in front of you in the air. And if your Autopilot disengages you aren't going to run off the road. I hope I don't have to explain all the situations that can occur on the ground that don't in the air.

That said, thanks for responding instead of just down voting. I happen to passionately disagree with your argument though.

Because Tesla decided to call it "autopilot," and everybody knows that's what airplanes have.

If you understand what the autopilot can/can't do in airplanes, it's a very accurate description of the Tesla "autopilot." However, the general public doesn't know this and thinks autonomous. Even though the autopilot name is perfectly accurate to me, Tesla should have called it something else, like "driver assist."

Until a driverless car pulls up and you get in the back seat like a taxi, you are responsible for its operation. Airplane autopilots aren't in command; therefore, they have no responsibility. I've never heard a pilot say, "It's not my fault. It was the autopilot."

If he did, he wouldn't get very far . . . Although, with the increasing amount of airplane automation and the fact that on many aircraft the flight controls are connected to a computer (cough, Airbus, cough) rather than the flight controls, I can see this coming. Pilots fighting the flight computer is still different than giving up responsibility to the autopilot, though.

 

[xav-]

As a non owner I would love to see an in depth YouTube review of v8..

I say drive into a box with some aluminum foil now.. Then do it with V8.

 

[rog]

Just saw via Teslafi that someone installed a version 103.53.1

Wonder what that is...

 

[Sir Guacamolaf]

Just saw via Teslafi that someone installed a version 103.53.1

Let's see...

Does that mean 8.0 has started to roll out?

 

[rog]

I don't know - could also be an EAP / beta participant, or some other funny quirk.

 

[182RG]

I was hoping that there might be something in Aviation that could suggest a solution for Automobiles.

There is.

Technologically Advanced Aircraft Safety and Training - AOPA

The proliferation of glass cockpit general aviation aircraft created the concept of TAA - Technically Advanced Aircraft. The FAA and the industry have been collaborating on training for a while. We instructors, do indeed, focus on TAA during initial, transition, and recurrent training for pilots.

Cars are moving in the same direction. Like it or not, increased levels of automation and information inside the cockpit/cabin focus the driver/pilot's attention inside on the technology, vs. outside where it should be. This is a level of distraction, creating a safety compromise that shouldn't be ignored.