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You keep missing the point. Those of us complaining of the nag DO keep our hands on the wheel. One more time, hand ARE ON THE WHEEL. I'll say it again so there is no ambiguity, the argument here is that our HANDS ARE ON THE WHEEL and OUR EYES ARE OUTSIDE. Understand?

The problem is that there is not enough torque on the wheel and that, since we are looking outside, like every good driver should do, it is easy to miss the visual nag when it comes on. Why would I be looking at the IC? I am looking at traffic and road conditions.

Am in clear?

I would hope everyone with this issue takes their car into the SC and complains. We don't know what the torque sensor is calibrated to, but it appears too high for a lot of folks. The only way Tesla will know that's a problem is if you take your car in.
 
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Rather than down vote you, I thought your post merited a reply:

When I'm flying our small plane (another non-autonomous vehicle) using autopilot, I'm always prepared to hit the big red OFF disconnect button at all times (and have had to quickly do so when encountering other aircraft traffic, navigation issues that cause the autopilot to make unexpected moves, weather upsets, etc.). It's the pilot's responsibility to know when to safely have the plane "steer" itself using autopilot vs. hand-flying the plane using the flight controls (yoke/stick and rudder pedals).

This means that I can't take a nap, watch a movie, or stop taking seriously my role as pilot in command of the aircraft just because the plane is currently on autopilot. No government regulators, the FAA, or aircraft manufacturers have ever forced on pilots a system that automatically disconnects the autopilot -- or nags the pilot -- if the plane doesn't sense the pilot applying a force to the flight controls every couple of minutes. This despite aircraft design/operation/maintenance being FAR MORE regulated than automobiles, and aircraft manufacturers routinely being hit with lawsuits after airplane crashes. There have certainly been airplane accidents and fatalities caused by pilots misusing autopilots, yet nobody in their right mind would ever require the kinds of restrictions to "hold the wheel" being implemented by automobile manufacturers. (Note that one aircraft manufacturer recently introduced a system to detect pilot incapacitation due to hypoxia -- lack of O2 when flying unpressurized aircraft at high altitudes -- that will use the autopilot to descend below 10,000 feet if the pilot hasn't touched the controls within 15 minutes. But the pilot can turn this system on or off to maintain complete aircraft control.)

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Why can't I decide when it's appropriate to have my Tesla steer itself just because one driver was apparently watching a Harry Potter movie on his portable player and killed himself?
1. Because you agreed to hold the steering wheel at all times when you enabled it.
2. Because not all people can be trusted to use it approprately (ref YouTube videos of people doing dumb things)
3. Because there are cars an families driving right next to you.
4. Because regulators can order it all be disabled if this control is not enforced.

The analogy between the aircraft and automotive systems can only go so far.
 
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I would hope everyone with this issue takes their car into the SC and complains. We don't know what the torque sensor is calibrated to, but it appears too high for a lot of folks. The only way Tesla will know that's a problem is if you take your car in.
I was thinking the same thing in my discussion with @GlmnAlyAirCar. I just have two fingers and a thumb of one hand wrapped around the wheel and I don't get nags. He and others are stating they have to apply significant torque to the wheel to avoid the nags. Something seems different with the calibration.
 
1. Because you agreed to hold the steering wheel at all times when you enabled it.
2. Because not all people can be trusted to use it approprately (ref YouTube videos of people doing dumb things)
3. Because there are cars an families driving right next to you.
4. Because regulators can order it all be disabled if this control is not enforced.

The analogy between the aircraft and automotive systems can only go so far.
1. What good is an auto steering system if you can't ever let go of the wheel? If that's the case, what good is auto steer? Why even offer it if it's not intended to be used without the driver having to regularly apply torque to the steering wheel? That's as crazy as disabling cruise control unless the driver presses the accelerator at least once per minute on the highway. Any agreement put up on a screen before enabling Autopilot was obviously put there as CYA protection for the manufacturer -- insisted upon by their lawyers to reduce potential liability. Do you read and agree to all the fine print every time you upgrade software to your computer or mobile phone?
2. Based on that logic, we shouldn't let most people drive cars at all because they can be misused. People are ALWAYS going to do dumb things; we don't have to watch YouTube to know this. How did we ever permit cruise control on cars?
3. You do realize that when I'm flying our small aircraft using autopilot (and not required to file flight plans or talk to ATC), I'm sharing often-crowded airspace with passenger airliners carrying hundreds of unaware passengers and families, right? And that our plane operating on autopilot could fly right into your house?
4. The threat of potential regulation always exists in every industry. Most of the thousands of FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) are "tombstone" regulations that were put into place usually as result of an aircraft accident.

I think the analogy between aircraft and automotive systems is very strong; Tesla had good reason to call their system "Autopilot" even if non-pilots may not appreciate it.
 
You do realize that when I'm flying our small aircraft using autopilot (and not required to file flight plans or talk to ATC), I'm sharing often-crowded airspace with passenger airliners carrying hundreds of unaware passengers and families, right? And that our plane operating on autopilot could fly right into your house?

A lot of people give this analogy of aircraft versus car. I feel that analogy is very misleading.

When you are in the air, and your aircraft misbehaves, you are miles from the closest solid object. Even at aircraft speeds you have 10-15 seconds of reaction time at the minimum. In fact, most pilots do not use autopilot for take off or landing - they use it to align for landing but the actual landing almost always is manual (unless fog etc.) .. plus aircraft pilots undergo much more stringent training, checks, and so do the aircraft, and we have a lot more time and experience with airplane autopilot, and lot fewer aircraft than cars.

In an automobile, you are a fraction of a millisecond away from a multi-car pile up and 5-10 potential deaths and injuries easily. And any dummy can get behind the wheel, and there are cars feet away from me at high speeds when I go for a walk.

So please stop comparing aircraft autopilot with automobile autopilot. It's not the same!

Back to the original point though, no matter what Tesla does to the software, Autopilot from here on will get incrementally better with crazy wizardry in software. While I am very impressed with that wizardry, the fact remains for the next 2-5 years, you will need to keep your hands on the wheel and the better it AP gets, the more your increased false sense of perceived security.

Meanwhile, nobody is saying a decent MP3 player or Nav is a bad idea.

Maybe Tesla should shift priorities a bit?
 
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Were you trained to use Autopilot? Or is it possible to get a pilots license without that knowledge / training and then step into a plane WITH Autopilot and just start using it?
To pass their Private Pilot checkride with an examiner, pilots must be trained to operate every system within the aircraft because the examiner may ask the pilot to demonstrate any system, including the autopilot. This is especially true for more advanced Instrument Rating checkrides, where demonstrated use of the autopilot is expected because it contributes to safer operation of the aircraft during instrument conditions where the pilot can't see anything out the window. Use of the autopilot frees up pilot mental capacity so the pilot can focus more on navigation, radios, and situational awareness -- rather than manually operating the flight controls to keep the wings level or to maintain a heading.

(BTW, I'm also a flight instructor CFI/CFII/MEI)
 
And GM has reasonably priced repairs compared to Tesla. I love Tesla but man, do they need to wake up a bit here.
As an owner of an EV from a predominately ICE company (eGolf) I can tell you that it may be years before properly trained gm mechanics are widely available to service your Bolt.
 
When you are in the air, and your aircraft misbehaves, you are miles from the closest solid object. Even at aircraft speeds you have 10-15 seconds of reaction time at the minimum. In fact, most pilots do not use autopilot for take off or landing - they use it to align for landing but the actual landing almost always is manual (unless fog etc.) .. plus aircraft pilots undergo much more stringent training, checks, and so do the aircraft, and we have a lot more time and experience with airplane autopilot, and lot fewer aircraft than cars.
Based on real-world experience I have to disagree. Unfortunately when flying around busy airports in the traffic pattern (especially at non-towered smaller airports) there have been multiple times when I've had to jerk the flight controls at the last second to avoid an imminent collision. Pilots of high-wing planes often can't see aircraft above, and low-wing pilots often can't see other aircraft below, and the closing rates are much higher than most cars.

And you're forgetting about another type of "solid object" to be avoided in flight: birds! Much more frequently (and often while on autopilot) I've had only a second to avoid a bird strike, with the same type of reaction as required to avoid a car driver unexpectedly moving into your lane. Last year when flying on final approach to land at night (again, on autopilot) I actually hit a big bird (an owl) that passed through my landing light too late to see and avoid. Fortunately the bird somehow went through the left prop without hitting any blades, but the strike cracked the carbon fiber cowlings on the left engine nacelle and I was able to land safely.

So the analogy between plane and car autopilots still holds; you can't be complacent and lose situational awareness when using either one.
 
I would hope everyone with this issue takes their car into the SC and complains. We don't know what the torque sensor is calibrated to, but it appears too high for a lot of folks. The only way Tesla will know that's a problem is if you take your car in.
To update, I got my X back after 23 days in service. One of the concerns was this steering torque/AP sensitivity. Their response:

Service Center said:
Test drove vehicle on extended road test was was not able to verify customers concern. Autopilot is functioning as designed. The vehicle system expects the driver to be engaged when Autosteer (Autopilot) is active. The system will prompt the driver to place their hands on the wheel and eventually slowdown if the driver does not engage. This will occur (1) after some time has passed without hands-on detected or (2) when entering a moderate curve without hands-on detected. Please see owners manual for more information.

may need more details on this issue, does it repeatedly happen on the same road? recommend technician drive specific road if available

Interestingly, I used AP on the highway heading out of the Service Center, and within about 10 miles, got the nag twice. One thing is that I keep two hands on the wheel. I started wondering if maybe I counterbalance my hand weight between them and the car cannot sense the torque as much, but when I got it the second time, I had moved to holding with one hand at the 3:00 position. Still no dice.

Next time around, I guess I'll visit with them and do a test drive.
 
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1. What good is an auto steering system if you can't ever let go of the wheel? If that's the case, what good is auto steer? Why even offer it if it's not intended to be used without the driver having to regularly apply torque to the steering wheel? That's as crazy as disabling cruise control unless the driver presses the accelerator at least once per minute on the highway. Any agreement put up on a screen before enabling Autopilot was obviously put there as CYA protection for the manufacturer -- insisted upon by their lawyers to reduce potential liability. Do you read and agree to all the fine print every time you upgrade software to your computer or mobile phone?
2. Based on that logic, we shouldn't let most people drive cars at all because they can be misused. People are ALWAYS going to do dumb things; we don't have to watch YouTube to know this. How did we ever permit cruise control on cars?
3. You do realize that when I'm flying our small aircraft using autopilot (and not required to file flight plans or talk to ATC), I'm sharing often-crowded airspace with passenger airliners carrying hundreds of unaware passengers and families, right? And that our plane operating on autopilot could fly right into your house?
4. The threat of potential regulation always exists in every industry. Most of the thousands of FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) are "tombstone" regulations that were put into place usually as result of an aircraft accident.

I think the analogy between aircraft and automotive systems is very strong; Tesla had good reason to call their system "Autopilot" even if non-pilots may not appreciate it.
It's not lost on me that you didn't disagree with my points, you just explained them.
1. Yes you agreed to it but your agreement didn't mean anything it was just "CYA".
2. You agree there's lots of people doing dumb things like sitting in the back seat while using auto pilot.
3. You agree it's dangerous but you argue that aircraft autopilot (which you acknowledge you are trained on) is equally dangerous.
4. You agree that if a regulator requires hands on the wheel Tesla has to enforce it.

I don't want to get into a long back and forth on this. Let's just agree to disagree.
 
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To pass their Private Pilot checkride with an examiner, pilots must be trained to operate every system within the aircraft because the examiner may ask the pilot to demonstrate any system, including the autopilot.

Thanks. I'm curious to know if it is possible to learn in a plane that has no AP and then get pilot's license, and thereafter to hop into a plane that has AP and use that - or if more training is required? (Perhaps they are differently "type rated" in some way that the license for one does not permit flying the other. Like in the UK if you pass your driving test in an Automatic you are not allowed to drive a Stick-shift).
 
Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Why can't I decide when it's appropriate to have my Tesla steer itself just because one driver was apparently watching a Harry Potter movie on his portable player and killed himself?
There's a difference between being "always on" with your attention and being "on suddenly." Attention shifts don't happen immediately, and the ability to move from one task to another varies by individual. Hands on the wheel is a decent proxy for attention, though as it has been noted, it's not completely thorough.

The reason we can't rely on personal responsibility is that people as a whole don't make great decisions about this kind of thing. We're living in a society where we share roads with other live humans. Tell me the alternative - what's the downside to having your hands on the wheel? And of course, I'm assuming that the torque sensitivity truly senses hands-on. If that's the case, what detriment does it provide to the driver? Is there still a benefit to Autopilot? Surely.

Hands off is weird anyway. I have a mental image of some of this thread's participants crossing their arms angrily across their chest, squinting their eyes, and scowling the whole time they're on Autopilot ;)
 
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Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Why can't I decide when it's appropriate to have my Tesla steer itself just because one driver was apparently watching a Harry Potter movie on his portable player and killed himself?
Perhaps because a driver's license is something that is relatively easy to obtain and considered a critical asset by most people, so that almost anyone can get one with a modicum of effort and thereby be allowed to drive on public roads surrounded by other cars, thereby putting thousands of other drivers at risk every time one drives a short distance. As opposed to a pilot's license which requires a considerable investment of time and money and when used to fly the plane is monitored by airspace traffic controllers (not every minute, but you know what I mean).

I do not equate a driver's license with a pilot's license. They are very different.
 
Thanks. I'm curious to know if it is possible to learn in a plane that has no AP and then get pilot's license, and thereafter to hop into a plane that has AP and use that - or if more training is required? (Perhaps they are differently "type rated" in some way that the license for one does not permit flying the other. Like in the UK if you pass your driving test in an Automatic you are not allowed to drive a Stick-shift).
Getting slightly off-topic here, what's legal to fly isn't always what's safe. Legally there's nothing to stop you from jumping into a different aircraft and flying it provided it's the same legal category and class (e.g., airplane single-engine land vs. airplane single-engine seaplane vs. airplane multi-engine land, etc.).

So when you learn to fly in one plane and then "hop into another" (with or without autopilot), you're typically renting from a flight school that will require additional training with a CFI (Certificated Flight Instructor) to check you out in the new plane before they'll let you fly it solo. If you buy a plane new to you, typically your insurance company will want to see a number of hours "time in type," often with an instructor to provide transition training, before you can get insured to fly it yourself.

Bottom line: if you transition to an aircraft with an autopilot (which most planes have), you undoubtedly will get trained in how to use it before you can fly the plane.
 
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To pass their Private Pilot checkride with an examiner, pilots must be trained to operate every system within the aircraft because the examiner may ask the pilot to demonstrate any system, including the autopilot. This is especially true for more advanced Instrument Rating checkrides, where demonstrated use of the autopilot is expected because it contributes to safer operation of the aircraft during instrument conditions where the pilot can't see anything out the window. Use of the autopilot frees up pilot mental capacity so the pilot can focus more on navigation, radios, and situational awareness -- rather than manually operating the flight controls to keep the wings level or to maintain a heading.

(BTW, I'm also a flight instructor CFI/CFII/MEI)

Yes.... that's true with THAT aircraft. But passing the checkride in a typical flight school 1978 C172 with basic instrumentation and no autopilot does nothing for the the owner who turns around and buys a Cirrus or a Meridian. It remains up to the owner and/or insurance company to determine what additional training they need, if any, to fly a new aircraft in the same category.

I've had a number of aircraft, with increasingly sophisticated avionics. In all cases I had to train myself using the manuals, on-line tools and a bunch of time experimenting in VFR conditions and on the ground. When I have enlisted a CFI, it's always been about learning the flight characteristics of the aircraft, and generally the CFI knew far less about the specific avionics than I did.

Going back to the Tesla. I firmly believe that each person is responsible for learning about the equipment that they're using - and not the manufacturer.
 
Bottom line: if you transition to an aircraft with an autopilot (which most planes have), you undoubtedly will get trained in how to use it before you can fly the plane.

That's not true in all cases - and especially with older aircraft. I've been through it a few times, and I have never had anybody train me to fly under autopilot. You probably get some of this with a Cirrus or other newer generation aircraft.
 
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Thanks. I'm curious to know if it is possible to learn in a plane that has no AP and then get pilot's license, and thereafter to hop into a plane that has AP and use that - or if more training is required? (Perhaps they are differently "type rated" in some way that the license for one does not permit flying the other. Like in the UK if you pass your driving test in an Automatic you are not allowed to drive a Stick-shift).

Absolutely it is with small aircraft. It happens all the time. It happened to me.
 
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