8.0

[sillydriver]

Apparently you don't have enough resistance to prevent the nag. I just rest my right elbow on the center armrest/cup holders and hold the steering wheel just firm enough to feel it turning and I get zero nags. I'm guessing it's only slightly tighter than what you're doing.

There seems to be a lot of variation in the torque needed to satisfy the nag in different cars. I wonder if it has anything to do with the steering setting between sport, normal and comfort (or whatever the names are). My car is set to sport and at takes very little torque to satisfy the nag.

 

[msnow]

There seems to be a lot of variation in the torque needed to satisfy the nag in different cars. I wonder if it has anything to do with the steering setting between sport, normal and comfort (or whatever the names are). My car is set to sport and at takes very little torque to satisfy the nag.

Could be. Mines set at Standard.

 

[pdxgibby]

I have concerns about autosteer-disabling based on repeated nags as well:

When I set autosteer/autopilot to ON for freeway driving, I don't have much need to look at the instrument cluster. I concentrate on the road in front of me at all times, but I rarely look down at the IC. The "nag" is nothing more than a distraction that hurts safety in my opinion. Once in autopilot mode, a driver's eyes should always be on the road in what I call "driver concur mode." Our job as drivers is to supervise and concur with the autopilot system. Emergencies that require overriding the autopilot mode can occur if and only if we are watching the road.

I'm hoping that this bullet will help prevent me from missing the repeated nags that take my attention away from the road (where it should be):

• Interface alerts are much more prominent, including flashing white border on instrument panel

 

[msnow]

I have concerns about autosteer-disabling based on repeated nags as well:

When I set autosteer/autopilot to ON for freeway driving, I don't have much need to look at the instrument cluster. I concentrate on the road in front of me at all times, but I rarely look down at the IC. The "nag" is nothing more than a distraction that hurts safety in my opinion. Once in autopilot mode, a driver's eyes should always be on the road in what I call "driver concur mode." Our job as drivers is to supervise and concur with the autopilot system. Emergencies that require overriding the autopilot mode can occur if and only if we are watching the road.

I'm hoping that this bullet will help prevent me from missing the repeated nags that take my attention away from the road (where it should be):

• Interface alerts are much more prominent, including flashing white border on instrument panel

I would only add that when in autopilot the driver, in addition to the road, should be paying attention to your instrument cluster and audible/visible warning sounds.

 

[supratachophobia]

Let me preface this by saying - I am actually excited about 8.0 and looking forward to the improvements. From my viewpoint, 8.0 is going to give me more than what I paid for. I am more excited about 8.0 than iPhone 7. LOL

But - it would be nice if Elon had talked a little bit about improvements to other areas besides AP.

Media
Nav
Phone integration

Strange that nobody from the media asked him either. So 8.0 is a bit of a poocake, I mean I like cake, but I know whats inside, so gonna scrape off the top to get rid of kidspit, eat a layer, and throw the rest.

Anyone else feel this way?

I've been harping on Media improvements for 3 years. Having had an Empeg in every car for the last 15 years, I know exactly what makes a good media player with regards to playlists and navigation. Not all of us listen to internet radio all day.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Seems to me this could be reference to the European market where Spotify is already available.

But, that was the US site of Spotify, and I don't believe the European version has some of the options that they talk about. Someone who uses spotify in a Europe would have confirm that though.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

Apparently you don't have enough resistance to prevent the nag. I just rest my right elbow on the center armrest/cup holders and hold the steering wheel just firm enough to feel it turning and I get zero nags. I'm guessing it's only slightly tighter than what you're doing.

thanks for the tip, but we have gotten way off my original point. My point was that using holding the steering wheel as a proxy for attentiveness is problematic. Taking steps to further enforce the "hold the wheel" requirement doesn't address the underlying issue that there isn't a 1:1 correlation between holding the wheel and attentiveness. Other solutions exist. There are system that track a user's eyes to detect inattentiveness. Of course this would need new hardware but it would address the issue much better.

 

[Sir Guacamolaf]

Suggestion,

- Torque sensor on steering wheel
- Heart beat sensors/glucose monitors on steering wheel
- Sensors to detect user's eyes getting droopy
- A butt pincher, ear tickler headrest and slapper visor if you doze off.

.. really there is no limit to improvements.

How about we start with a better MP3 player?

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

How about we start with a better MP3 player?

If we got that I'd spend less time staring down at the screen wondering WTF?

 

[msnow]

thanks for the tip, but we have gotten way off my original point. My point was that using holding the steering wheel as a proxy for attentiveness is problematic. Taking steps to further enforce the "hold the wheel" requirement doesn't address the underlying issue that there isn't a 1:1 correlation between holding the wheel and attentiveness. Other solutions exist. There are system that track a user's eyes to detect inattentiveness. Of course this would need new hardware but it would address the issue much better.

Right but it's all they have.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Apparently you don't have enough resistance to prevent the nag.

Well, yes, that's correct. But you've made the illogical conclusion that grip strength is proportional to safety. I don't buy that.

I suffer from the exact same issue. When on AP, I have full grip on the wheel, but I exert no torque. So nags appear. And I nearly always miss the current 7.1 1st visual-only nag. It sounds like 8.0's 1st visual-only nag will be a lot more easily seen in peripheral vision, so I welcome that. But really, the issue is that using a torque sensor for "hands on the wheel" is actually a poor sensor. If the steering wheel had a small metal band all the way around the back that was capacitive-touch instead, everyone's hands indeed would be detected if they're touching the wheel whether they exert torque or not.

But again, ensuring someone has hands on the wheel gives you only minimal (if that) information about whether they're paying attention. A camera with an eye sensor would probably be better -- make sure the drivers eyes are open and looking towards the road and/or IC.

 

[msnow]

Well, yes, that's correct. But you've made the illogical conclusion that grip strength is proportional to safety. I don't buy that.

I suffer from the exact same issue. When on AP, I have full grip on the wheel, but I exert no torque. So nags appear. And I nearly always miss the current 7.1 1st visual-only nag. It sounds like 8.0's 1st visual-only nag will be a lot more easily seen in peripheral vision, so I welcome that. But really, the issue is that using a torque sensor for "hands on the wheel" is actually a poor sensor. If the steering wheel had a small metal band all the way around the back that was capacitive-touch instead, everyone's hands indeed would be detected if they're touching the wheel whether they exert torque or not.

But again, ensuring someone has hands on the wheel gives you only minimal (if that) information about whether they're paying attention. A camera with an eye sensor would probably be better -- make sure the drivers eyes are open and looking towards the road and/or IC.

No, we are only talking about Elon's observation that experienced AP drivers who have learned the behavior to tug the wheel each time they get a nag are the drivers at the highest risk. @GlmnAlyAirCar commented that he has a hand on the wheel but still gets nagged. At that point we got off topic about what grip prevents nags. I still believe holding the steering wheel is safer than not.

 

[willdlsu]

I

No, we are only talking about Elon's observation that experienced AP drivers who have learned the behavior to tug the wheel each time they get a nag are the drivers at the highest risk. @GlmnAlyAirCar commented that he has a hand on the wheel but still gets nagged. At that point we got off topic about what grip prevents nags. I still believe holding the steering wheel is safer than not.

Additional detail from the transcript has been posted by Electrek: Transcript: Elon Musk’s press conference about Tesla Autopilot under v8.0 update [Part 7]

Elon: "The limitation of only 3 audible warnings per hour [laughing] which is a fair number of warnings, but we see people engaging in reflex actions where they will hear a warning every 3 minutes and they will just touch the steering wheel but not actually pay attention to the road. I think that will be most effective in addressing the instinctive “I want the beep to go away” and touch the steering wheel, it will only allow people to do that 3 times in an hour."

 

[Zybd1201]

Let me preface this by saying - I am actually excited about 8.0 and looking forward to the improvements. From my viewpoint, 8.0 is going to give me more than what I paid for. I am more excited about 8.0 than iPhone 7. LOL

But - it would be nice if Elon had talked a little bit about improvements to other areas besides AP.

Media
Nav
Phone integration

Strange that nobody from the media asked him either. So 8.0 is a bit of a poocake, I mean I like cake, but I know whats inside, so gonna scrape off the top to get rid of kidspit, eat a layer, and throw the rest.

Anyone else feel this way?

I am incredibly excited about 8.0 and I really hope it comes soon so I can decide whether they have addressed some of the serious issues I am having. I know they have a talented team and I can't wait to see it.

If they limited autopilot, good for them. I am sure they did it for the right reasons and I applaud them for it!

I do hope we get a better browser though, I like to use it when charging and it is really, really bad.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

I still believe holding the steering wheel is safer than not.

Agreed. But whether I'm actually holding the wheel and whether the car thinks I'm holding the wheel are two different things. And therein lies the problem.

I also disagree with Elon's assessment that expert AP drivers have trained themselves to "tug the wheel every 3 minutes to dismiss the nag". I consider myself one of these "expert" AP drivers -- I have probably 8000+ miles experience with AP engaged. Elon's implication is that expert AP drivers usually drive with hands off the wheel, then touch it to satisfy requirements. For myself and GlmnAlyAirCar and probably thousands of others, that's not the case. We tug the wheel because the car can't detect our grip and because the instrument cluster can't draw our attention from the road.

I'm fine with holding the wheel continuously while on AP. I'm not fine with the car dictating to me a short list of pre-approved required muscle twitch vectors that I have to perform on schedule in order to avoid the penalty box.

 

[uberanalyst]

For the first time I'm going to wait to install a new software release (with 8.0).

I love the way the Autopilot currently works and that I can drive many minutes on freeways without getting nagged. Autopilot doing the steering frees me to look out of the window a lot more, watching what other drivers are doing (e.g., texting), and increasing situational awareness outside the car -- so much so that I usually miss the nag display on the instrument panel until it mutes the stereo. This is akin to flying my airplane on autopilot where as a pilot I can spend more time looking for other traffic, checking navigation, reviewing approach charts in preparation for landing, and listening/talking to ATC -- rather than expending effort operating the flight controls to simply hold a heading or altitude to "steer" the airplane.

If (as has been reported) Tesla forces a once/minute nag above 45 mph, it will dramatically reduce the utility of Autopilot on the highway, and I'm going to be angry at Tesla for removing a wonderful capability. I recently drove my daughter's brand new VW GTI that kicks off auto steer if you don't apply torque to the steering wheel every 15 seconds, thus making VW's "lane keeping" system (that's otherwise very similar to Autopilot) nearly worthless.

I fully expect some Tesla drivers to do what Mercedes drivers have already done: hang some weights on the steering wheel to exert torque to fool the system -- it'll be a shame if it comes to that.

 

[ohmman]

If (as has been reported) Tesla forces a once/minute nag above 45 mph, it will dramatically reduce the utility of Autopilot on the highway, and I'm going to be angry at Tesla for removing a wonderful capability.

Once again, I personally read that as a nag for every minute it doesn't detect hands on the wheel. So if your hands are on the wheel (and more importantly, the car detects them), you won't get a nag every minute. If you're a hands-free driver then I do think you're in for a change. I'd argue you should be, though.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I'm going to install it as soon as it comes available for three primary reasons

1.) The fears over the nag I believe are exaggerated. I don't think the real world situation will be as bad as people fear.

2.) There is a lot I've been hoping for that comes with Version 8.0. Everything from detecting turn signals to alignment on the lane all the way to Spotify (not confirmed, but a bunch of signs point to yes)

3.) Because if I'm wrong it's not that big of a deal since I'm hardly a major AP user, and definitely not a major hands off the wheel person either (truck lust is scary). I also have absolutely zero issues with velcro'ing some weight, or installing a device between the torque sensor and the receiver to trick it once a minute. I'll sell the device for like $1000 bucks each and get rich. - To the mods - I kid.

I don't blame Tesla for this limitation. I think they were basically between a rock and a hard place and this is the compromise. People that don't compromise often go out of business.

 

[msnow]

Agreed. But whether I'm actually holding the wheel and whether the car thinks I'm holding the wheel are two different things. And therein lies the problem.

I also disagree with Elon's assessment that expert AP drivers have trained themselves to "tug the wheel every 3 minutes to dismiss the nag". I consider myself one of these "expert" AP drivers -- I have probably 8000+ miles experience with AP engaged. Elon's implication is that expert AP drivers usually drive with hands off the wheel, then touch it to satisfy requirements. For myself and GlmnAlyAirCar and probably thousands of others, that's not the case. We tug the wheel because the car can't detect our grip and because the instrument cluster can't draw our attention from the road.

I'm fine with holding the wheel continuously while on AP. I'm not fine with the car dictating to me a short list of pre-approved required muscle twitch vectors that I have to perform on schedule in order to avoid the penalty box.

I have as much if not more experience with it (since 10/15/15) and I learned that holding the steering wheel is different than just lightly touching it. I rarely get nags and feel in control without "muscle twitching" or fatigue.

 

[mobe]

I keep my eyes on the road at all times and my hands on the wheel. I miss the visual warning EVERY SINGLE TIME because I'm focused on what's happening OUTSIDE the car, not on what's happening in the instrument cluster. My flight instructor used to say that unless you are flying hard IFR you should have your eyes outside the aircraft and glance at the instruments every couple of minutes. That's exactly the way I drive on autopilot. If three audio warnings disable autopilot then it will be absolutely worthless to me. All the audio warning does is to tell me that I'm not applying enough torque to the wheel, my hands are already there. They REALLY need to rethink this.