MartinScorpio
Member
Could the degradation be caused by the algorithm responding to the new tires? I understand first 5.000 miles on new tires reduces range by 5%
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ArtInCT
Always Learning
Does Rated Range take into account the mode you have selected.... for instance... in the P85D or P90DL, is the rated range taking into account the fact that you are in SPORT mode vs INSANE or LUDICROUS Mode? Based upon what apacheguy said above, I guess not...
90D range slowly decreasing!
Hi Ron,
Exactly the same thing happening with our 90D! We received it on Sept. 9, 2015 and the 90% charge range was 258 miles.
This morning, Nov. 4th, 2015, the 90% charge range was 247 miles. We asked our service center about it and here is the less than helpful response we received from Tesla:
"I spoke to our Shop Foreman here and he said it could be showing that minor drop for a couple reasons. Mainly lately since he has been colder the batteries could be using more energy to stay at its constant temperature. Also Based on driving habits, the car could be estimating less on the energy bar. It is not necessarily saying the car will always drive at less range or only charging up to that specific mileage.
I hope this helped clarify some of those concerns!"
Um, no, it doesn't.
It has not been cold here in Sacramento - not throughout the months of Sept. & Oct. - in fact it was in the 90's (degrees F) most days.
And I, for the most part, drive like a little old lady so the 'driving habits response' does not provide any explanation as to why the range has dropped by 11 miles. We paid an extra $3k for an extra 6% which is now 68.8% gone. What the heck?
RJ:crying:
Hi Ron,
Exactly the same thing happening with our 90D! We received it on Sept. 9, 2015 and the 90% charge range was 258 miles.
This morning, Nov. 4th, 2015, the 90% charge range was 247 miles. We asked our service center about it and here is the less than helpful response we received from Tesla:
"I spoke to our Shop Foreman here and he said it could be showing that minor drop for a couple reasons. Mainly lately since he has been colder the batteries could be using more energy to stay at its constant temperature. Also Based on driving habits, the car could be estimating less on the energy bar. It is not necessarily saying the car will always drive at less range or only charging up to that specific mileage.
I hope this helped clarify some of those concerns!"
Um, no, it doesn't.
It has not been cold here in Sacramento - not throughout the months of Sept. & Oct. - in fact it was in the 90's (degrees F) most days.
And I, for the most part, drive like a little old lady so the 'driving habits response' does not provide any explanation as to why the range has dropped by 11 miles. We paid an extra $3k for an extra 6% which is now 68.8% gone. What the heck?
RJ:crying:
In the same boat you are and their answer was not helpful and minimized the concern. Did you communicate with them in a email or were you paraphrasing a verbal response?
They called me today and I think misunderstood my question and tried to explain it is based on my driving, speed , temperature etc.. I explained my understanding of rated at 90% .. And we agreed someone else will call me .. Since my post I am down 2 more miles at 90%. Stay tuned.
Keep on them, guys. I'm thinking maybe we will finally see a blog post from Tesla that details what exactly goes into the range algo and how best to maintain it (cell balancing, charge to 90/not charge to 90, benefit or detriment of range charging to force the balance circuits to activate, etc). This has been a long time coming.
It makes no sense if they are trying to explain this based on temperature, driving, speed etc. Temperature and driving go up and down daily but the range only keeps going down. It's inconsistent with the facts. If they said it needs recalibration it would make sense and they should calibrate it for us.
Who are you guys calling on this? Tesla Roadside Assistance/Tech Support, Tesla Motors Service, your local Service Center, someone else?
Who are you guys calling on this? Tesla Roadside Assistance/Tech Support, Tesla Motors Service, your local Service Center, someone else?
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It's common to see new owners wondering why the rated range at 90% is dropping gradually. This happens to everybody. It's not a flaw in your new cars, it's just that the estimate for range can't be calculated very accurately. Although the batteries do degrade over time, this happens very gradually, and isn't the cause of most of the rated range drop you're seeing at 90% charge. Most of the drop is caused by drift in the range estimate over time, and depends on your amount of daily battery cycling.
For my S85, my 90% charge number started at 240 miles. It stayed at that number for about two weeks, then started dropping. 239 .. 238 .. ... 233 .. 232. This happened within the first few months, and was a little disconcerting, but I read that it was normal, and decided not to worry about it too much. It eventually stabilized around 231-233. Then 7 months after I got the car, I took it on a road trip from Sunnyvale, CA to Boise, ID. The segment from Winnemucca to Boise is a little over 250 miles, with elevation changes, so it was the first time I did a 100% range charge. I did my second range charge for the return trip, and upon returning home, I found that my 90% charge the next morning was back at 240 miles!
The range charges allowed the car's estimation software to recalibrate the range estimate. Apparently the software needs to see a real max charge, combined with a very low state of charge to form the best estimate. Otherwise, the estimate drifts based on old measurements.
Within a month of my return, the 90% charge range estimate was back at the 231-233 level that I've gotten used to, and has stayed at that level, as before. It's just a best guess estimate, and now I know that my real range, if I need a range charge, will be a little bit higher, but it's a good enough estimate for my daily driving needs.
- Marcel
For my S85, my 90% charge number started at 240 miles. It stayed at that number for about two weeks, then started dropping. 239 .. 238 .. ... 233 .. 232. This happened within the first few months, and was a little disconcerting, but I read that it was normal, and decided not to worry about it too much. It eventually stabilized around 231-233. Then 7 months after I got the car, I took it on a road trip from Sunnyvale, CA to Boise, ID. The segment from Winnemucca to Boise is a little over 250 miles, with elevation changes, so it was the first time I did a 100% range charge. I did my second range charge for the return trip, and upon returning home, I found that my 90% charge the next morning was back at 240 miles!
The range charges allowed the car's estimation software to recalibrate the range estimate. Apparently the software needs to see a real max charge, combined with a very low state of charge to form the best estimate. Otherwise, the estimate drifts based on old measurements.
Within a month of my return, the 90% charge range estimate was back at the 231-233 level that I've gotten used to, and has stayed at that level, as before. It's just a best guess estimate, and now I know that my real range, if I need a range charge, will be a little bit higher, but it's a good enough estimate for my daily driving needs.
- Marcel
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Yes, that was my experience too from when I first owned my car. The range dropped just like people are posting when charging initially to 90%. It caused me a bit of concern too. Some people posted that lithium ion batteries degrade most in the first year, then level off, which eased my concern a bit. But then after fully charging and depleting my battery (twice) by driving to my cabin and back I got the 90% range back to when I first got it.
You can read more here about the explanation of why this is:
Tesla Battery Range Degradation - TESLARATI.com
“As far as your question about ‘pack balancing’, it is not really necessary. Fully charging your battery to the maximum several times may increase the estimated range that is displayed on your dash, but not necessarily because your battery packs need balancing. The algorithms used for estimating range are based on determining how much energy is stored in your battery. However, the only accurate way to measure the amount of energy a battery can store is to fully charge the battery, then completely discharge the battery to zero, then measure the amount of energy that was released. While this would give an accurate measurement, it would not be good for the battery. So the Model S uses algorithms to estimate the amount of energy a battery can store.
When a battery is fully charged, the algorithm is able ‘learn’ the ‘upper limit’ for the battery. But since you don’t fully charge your battery often (which is a good thing), the algorithm for your vehicle may no longer have an accurate value for the ‘upper limit’, causing your Estimated Range calculation to be slightly off. By fully charging your battery several times, your algorithm may relearn the ‘upper limit’ of your battery, so it may start to show a different/higher number for your Estimated Range. It is important to understand, however, that fully charging your battery several times, is not going to actually help your battery. In fact, frequent full charging of your battery can actually accelerate battery degradation.”
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I was at the service center when I asked them to look into it. I think they answered the question "why don't I get the rated range" rather than "why is my 90% rated range falling every day"
Your post makes me feel a little better but what happened to you "within the first few months" is happening to me and others after the first few weeks and it's continuing to decline daily and that decline isn't just for 90% charges but also full 100% charges. I'm hopeful it stabilizes like yours and comes back to normal because right now it "feels" like I wasted money on the 85 to 90 range upgrade.
Disagree. Tesla owner for 3 years and I'm very familiar with what you are describing. What we are seeing here though is a trend and it appears to affect all 90 kWh evenly. This is something very different.
Agree. My 70D, delivered in June, started with 216 miles at 90%. 8000 miles later, I'm at 214 miles which seems very normal. The 90D drop off is much, much worse and is almost the point of completely negating the extra $3k spent.
Hi, It was an email quote from our local service center. This morning the 90% charge range was 247 again. If it follows the pattern, it will drop another mile in the next week or so.
It has been charged to 100% (282 miles) once at home the first week we had the car and once at a supercharger (280 miles) on Oct. 10th. Have not charged
to 100% since then. I have included an image of our current usage screen.
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Ah..yes, a better way to phrase the question. I will try that next time I contact them :biggrin:
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We emailed our local service center.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Bad example. Tesla has had years to develop their proprietary algorithm and to get it correct on the 85 kW. If you read through old posts here, when they changed it, so did our readings. Unless the 90 people are fully discharging and charging their batteries twice, what they are reading are not actual capacity readings, but algorithm calculated capacity readings, which are two very different things.
Boy I feel sorry for Tesla but I guess this is expected. The early adopters who used to work through issues are now over and people expect perfection right out of gate, even with a technology that is in its infancy. I guess that's expected. I highly doubt the 90 batteries are defective. I really wish one owner would fully charge and fully discharge his/her battery twice and post the results. But that's more of an early adopter thing to do, which I understand. Fully charging only means little since it needs to also calculate the full discharge before getting a correct reading.
I'm certain Tesla will be making a lot tweaks to 90 software to get the algorithm correct like they did with the 60 and the 85 over the years. Perhaps the batteries are defective but my money is on the algorithm needing revisions.
And if you folks want to see problems with an algorithm try owning a Leaf, or just go over to the Leaf form and read the posts about what is called the "Guess-O-Meter". And there's no over the air updates to a Leaf to get that fixed. I know a Leaf is a lot cheaper and we expect better for our $100k plus car. No need to post it, I've heard it all before.
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Try not to be so defensive on this issue. I'm an earlier adopter and did not experience this symptom that you speak of. The new 90 kWh customers paid a lot for their cars and have a right to know what is going on even if it's just Tesla messing around with the range algo. I don't think anyone is saying 90 kWh is "defective." It is a new chemistry so there are a lot of unknowns. They have a right to be reassured.
If you say so. Will it still be a bad example when 90 owners see *another* 3% drop in a month or two?
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