The biggest thing here is education and expectations. Our instincts from years of ICE driving don't prepare us for the dramatic effect on range that turning on the heater or driving 5mph faster has. An ICE engine is so inefficient that the heat comes for free and the speed has a much less dramatic impact on mileage.
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A "scary" trip from Davis CA to Los Angeles...
- Thread starter Bruce
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- California los angeles USA
kinddog
Banned
FlasherZ is absolutely correct, aerodynamic drag increases with the cube of velocity, and by my calculations drag increased about 23% going from 65 to 70 and from 65 to 75 drag increases by 54%. So slow down to 60 and turn the climate control to 68 or less and use seat heaters.
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I also worry about this, hopefully Tesla will do some hand holding, TM doesn't need another NYT article.
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I also worry about this, hopefully Tesla will do some hand holding, TM doesn't need another NYT article.
dennis
Model S Plaid
Then maybe Elon should throttle back the hype, since he is setting the expectations:
"300 mile battery"
"Add 150 miles of range in 30 minutes"
"Not just the best EV, the best car"
With those expectations, everyone's first supercharger trip has some disappointments even if it is not the disaster that the NYT reporter experienced. Mine did as I nursed my Model S for the last 25 miles and arrived at Harris Ranch with 1 mile of remaining range. As a fellow owner told me of his successful SF-LA round trip, "it was interesting, but I probably won't do it again".
I've got a road trip, probably 270 miles total and I'm not entirely sure what charging infrastructure I'll need. I was originally thinking, since I'm staying 2 nights in an area, that even at 110v I should be ok, but I'm really questioning that now.
EXACTLY.
Setting the expectations too high will hurt Tesla.
The average "rich" person (ability to buy a $100k+ car) will not tolerate this.
"The best car" is possibly the biggest misnomer and most misleading.
Most people see about 2-3 miles per hour on a 110. Charging 36 hours = 108 miles rated range. Good enough?
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
That's one piece of data. Another would be that many of us have made that same round trip (my miles are higher yet, since I'm east of Sacramento), without Superchargers and less range (Roadster owners), and we've done it multiple times. You can't hang everything on one person's experience, unless you're looking for evidence to support the opinion you already hold.
Hmm, probably not. My Wh/mile so far gives me about 2/3rds rated range. Or, stated another way, increase actual distance by 50% to get the range I'd need. So 270 * 1.5 = 405. I'd only have 265+108 = 372. I won't make it
. I also wanted to drive to places nearby as we sight see, maybe 50 miles of driving.Good to know now I suppose.
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Maybe, but the problem is the location. I can't really afford to wait for charging on the way to my destination as we're already getting there late in the day. The plan was to get there for a late dinner then sleep. Charging on the way there to get enough range for the full trip would mean checking in at midnight or some such... There doesn't appear to be any charging infrastructure at the location based on recargo.com's info.
Hmm, probably not. My Wh/mile so far gives me about 2/3rds rated range. Or, stated another way, increase actual distance by 50% to get the range I'd need. So 270 * 1.5 = 405. I'd only have 265+108 = 372. I won't make it
Good to know now I suppose.
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Maybe, but the problem is the location. I can't really afford to wait for charging on the way to my destination as we're already getting there late in the day. The plan was to get there for a late dinner then sleep. Charging on the way there to get enough range for the full trip would mean checking in at midnight or some such... There doesn't appear to be any charging infrastructure at the location based on recargo.com's info.
The thing to remember about all this is that it's obviously easy to either rent an ICE car or (for married couples) use the spouses car for these trips. The reason we want to use the Model S if at all possible is because it's so much nicer to drive. 5 years from now these trips will all be much easier, but the Model S is the first car able to drive far enough for it to even make sense to have charging infrastructure outside of cities, and it's brand new.
edit: except for the roadster, of course, but not enough of them to make a difference.
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While it is true for turning on the heater, it is not true for driving 5 mph faster. Driving 5 mph faster in an ICE has the very same effect on range, in fact - even more - threefold, on MPG (as the Tesla is roughly 3-4x more efficient than the average ICE).
It's just that it isn't as apparent to the operator (because you can pull into a gas station), unless you're at the poverty line and are trying to squeeze every penny out of your tank on a regular basis. You'll be pulling into a gas station sooner.
Uncontrolled, unscientific studies on my Suburban show that I get roughly ~13 MPG at ~75 mph, ~14.5 at ~65 mph, and ~15.5 at ~60ish.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Some would argue that without Roadsters and other EV owners, there would not be infrastructure for Model S. You'd be where we were not that many years ago. And some would argue that having that infrastructure already DOES make a difference.
Hmm, probably not. My Wh/mile so far gives me about 2/3rds rated range. Or, stated another way, increase actual distance by 50% to get the range I'd need. So 270 * 1.5 = 405. I'd only have 265+108 = 372. I won't make it
Good to know now I suppose.
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Maybe, but the problem is the location. I can't really afford to wait for charging on the way to my destination as we're already getting there late in the day. The plan was to get there for a late dinner then sleep. Charging on the way there to get enough range for the full trip would mean checking in at midnight or some such... There doesn't appear to be any charging infrastructure at the location based on recargo.com's info.
I see. I meant at your destination. I thought you were able to get there on one charge and needed charging near your hotel.
I thought it was clear in my response that it is 40 miles out of the way. That might be too much for some, in which case it's clear that you can't go whatever speed you want and still make it. I opted for stopping at Gilroy for a few minutes which I both enjoyed, and which made my entire drive more enjoyable. It's not always about just the shortest distance
Peter
Peter
OK, yes. Another reason I don't think about in an ICE is that I'm usually either driving around town or at 70mph, and I'm still getting better mileage at 70 than I do around town, so on road trips the range per tank is what I'm used to.
K Hall
Member
Some would argue that without Roadsters and other EV owners, there would not be infrastructure for Model S. You'd be where we were not that many years ago. And some would argue that having that infrastructure already DOES make a difference.
Totally agree with Bonnie as a MS owner living in an area with scare infrastructure.
dennis
Model S Plaid
Sure, we can all make that round trip. In my case, I did it last April in my gas guzzling SUV in 5 1/2 hours, including one gas stop. In the Model S it was 6 hours of driving (I went somewhat slower to conserve range) and 1 1/2 hours of charging on the southbound trip and 2:30 of charging and 45 minutes of waiting to charge northbound. So 5:30 vs. 7:30 and 9:15 for the same trip.
It is a great achievement that Tesla has made long distance travel in a BEV possible. IMO it is barely practical and hardly convenient. But you would never be able to tell that from the supercharger announcement and Tesla's website, where I am led to believe I can add 150 miles of range in 30 minutes, not 115 miles of range in 45 minutes (the reality). Reality < Expectations = Disappointment. And that is what Tesla needs to worry about, since their hype is conditioning the consumer to believe that owning the Model S is just like having an ICE car except you never have to buy gas.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
Hi Bruce,
I'm glad you made it! I recently took the same trip from Harris Ranch to Davis CA, but my trip was very relaxed and easy - we went faster than you did, used more heat than you did (it was during the nasty cold snap in January), and arrived with 82 miles left. I'll explain how in a minute.
First, let's look at the last 204 mile trip you took. A lot of people above have made great comments on this, but I'll say the same thing in the terms I've come to use. The EPA range, like with EPA's MPG on gas cars, is roughly accurate at about 60mph; going 70 adds about 20% to your consumption (again, just like with a gas car). You didn't say what the temperature was; but if I assume 50, running the heater added 7% to your consumption in normal mode; maybe 5% in range mode (guessing as I have not been able to measure that). Lights and radio are too small to matter. So on a 204 mile trip at 125% consumption, I would expect you to use 255 miles of range. You left with 262, and arrived in Davis with 12 miles, so you actually used 250. Your trip is exactly in line with expectations. See THIS post to see where those numbers came from.
If you had taken a 25mpg car with a 10 gallon tank on the same trip without filling up, you would have been just as tense. (In fact the advice I normally see for gas cars is to fill up at 1/4 tank, so that would be after 188 miles in that imaginary gas vehicle). I was often tense on my first EV road trip when I stretched the range. I ran out of gas once in a gas car while stretching the range. What Tesla is not telling owners is, don't stretch the range! Given that Tesla is not telling owners this (in their defense, no other EV automaker does either), I am trying to get the word out so people don't encounter surprise close calls like you did.
That's how my trip to Davis was so comfortable. I never plan any trip over 177 miles without charging; you can see how I chose that number HERE. It means that I can drive at the speed I want, and use climate control all I want, and never have to worry about making it to my destination. The 204 mile trip from Harris Ranch to Davis is too far to be sure we will make it without slowing down, so we stopped at the Gilroy Supercharger on the way there. Yeah, it's out of the way; we could have picked a charging station on the way, but the Supercharger is enough faster that it more than made up for the extra time.
Yes, making an extra stop takes more time. But we didn't have ANY stress on our trip. The single disadvantage to an EV is that road trips take more time; if you would rather not make the time tradeoff, then you may be happier using your gas car for road trips even though its tradeoffs are that it costs more, pollutes more, and isn't as nice to drive. Good luck!
I'm glad you made it! I recently took the same trip from Harris Ranch to Davis CA, but my trip was very relaxed and easy - we went faster than you did, used more heat than you did (it was during the nasty cold snap in January), and arrived with 82 miles left. I'll explain how in a minute.
First, let's look at the last 204 mile trip you took. A lot of people above have made great comments on this, but I'll say the same thing in the terms I've come to use. The EPA range, like with EPA's MPG on gas cars, is roughly accurate at about 60mph; going 70 adds about 20% to your consumption (again, just like with a gas car). You didn't say what the temperature was; but if I assume 50, running the heater added 7% to your consumption in normal mode; maybe 5% in range mode (guessing as I have not been able to measure that). Lights and radio are too small to matter. So on a 204 mile trip at 125% consumption, I would expect you to use 255 miles of range. You left with 262, and arrived in Davis with 12 miles, so you actually used 250. Your trip is exactly in line with expectations. See THIS post to see where those numbers came from.
If you had taken a 25mpg car with a 10 gallon tank on the same trip without filling up, you would have been just as tense. (In fact the advice I normally see for gas cars is to fill up at 1/4 tank, so that would be after 188 miles in that imaginary gas vehicle). I was often tense on my first EV road trip when I stretched the range. I ran out of gas once in a gas car while stretching the range. What Tesla is not telling owners is, don't stretch the range! Given that Tesla is not telling owners this (in their defense, no other EV automaker does either), I am trying to get the word out so people don't encounter surprise close calls like you did.
That's how my trip to Davis was so comfortable. I never plan any trip over 177 miles without charging; you can see how I chose that number HERE. It means that I can drive at the speed I want, and use climate control all I want, and never have to worry about making it to my destination. The 204 mile trip from Harris Ranch to Davis is too far to be sure we will make it without slowing down, so we stopped at the Gilroy Supercharger on the way there. Yeah, it's out of the way; we could have picked a charging station on the way, but the Supercharger is enough faster that it more than made up for the extra time.
Yes, making an extra stop takes more time. But we didn't have ANY stress on our trip. The single disadvantage to an EV is that road trips take more time; if you would rather not make the time tradeoff, then you may be happier using your gas car for road trips even though its tradeoffs are that it costs more, pollutes more, and isn't as nice to drive. Good luck!
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