A Very Light Electric Car is Much Better than the Model S or Model E Oliver Kuttner

[dsm363]

A Very Light Electric Car is Much Better than the Model S or Model E Oliver ...

If making the Model S lighter makes it cheaper, how would you explain it if Tesla were to switch (they are not doing this of course) from Aluminum to steel to save money but added 500lbs and dropped the range 40 miles (just guessing on weight and range)?

 

[sheepdog]

The efficiency of the platform is key, ie weight and aerodynamics. That makes for a cheaper car with more range. The edison2 has 100miles of range on a 10kwh battery. The Illuminati motors Seven (at 3,000lbs) has a 35kwh battery and over 200 miles of range. These range figures are for freeway speeds. Their battery packs are really inexpensive, and would require between 1/2 and 1/4 the battery of a Tesla too achieve the same range. The battery is arguably the most expensive component of a car. This is the answer to an affordable long range electric car.

I have wondered how Tesla might make a long range affordable EV. It seems their strategy is just to brute force the cost of batteries down. Why do this when through aerodynamics alone you can have 2-3X the range from the same battery? Can you imagine getting 200 miles on the same battery as a Nissan leaf? Why does the Leaf and the Volt have such terrible aerodynamics?

Because car manufactures believe people wont accept a highly aerodynamic car in the market! Even Elon has said this. And so we waste more than 50% of a cars energy just pushing it through the air. And there are many attractive aerodynamic concept cars that have been made too.

I've seen the Illuminati Seven in person, and it is a fast and stunning car! The solution is right there if anyone will have it. Putting a Nissan Leaf pack in the Edison2 would give you 250miles of range, bring the car to just under 2,000lbs, and the whole car would be the cheapest EV on the market. Don't you think that would sell better than a Nissan Leaf? 250miles, or 73?

 

[Doug_G]

Why do this when through aerodynamics alone you can have 2-3X the range from the same battery? Can you imagine getting 200 miles on the same battery as a Nissan leaf? Why does the Leaf and the Volt have such terrible aerodynamics?

Because car manufactures believe people wont accept a highly aerodynamic car in the market! Even Elon has said this. And so we waste more than 50% of a cars energy just pushing it through the air. And there are many attractive aerodynamic concept cars that have been made too.

Probably because extremely aerodynamic cars aren't terribly practical.

Can you imagine how inconvenient it is to access the trunk (if there is one) in this image?

There are many competing design goals when you build a complex machine like an automobile. Safety. Performance. Efficiency. Storage. Comfort. Weight and volume carrying capacity. etc. etc. If you optimize a car for just one factor - in this case aerodynamics - you inevitably compromise many other things.

 

[sheepdog]

I think a 250 mile range EV is more practical than a 73mile one for the same price.

 

[Doug_G]

Agreed, but what makes you think they can build a practical street-legal version of that thing for the same price? Looks pretty darn big compared to a Leaf.

Regardless, let's be realistic. No one is going to buy that.

 

[snooper77]

I have wondered how Tesla might make a long range affordable EV. It seems their strategy is just to brute force the cost of batteries down. Why do this when through aerodynamics alone you can have 2-3X the range from the same battery?

I think you massively overestimate the feasibility of this. Improving aerodynamics of a car by 10 or 20% may be possible with smart and technically challenging adjustments, but factors of 2 or 3? Forget it.

And so we waste more than 50% of a cars energy just pushing it through the air.

Spoiler alert: All 100% of the energy is wasted. All of it. Turns to heat. If the car is aerodynamic then less is lost, but it's all just heat at the end of the day.

 

[jerry33]

Agreed, but what makes you think they can build a practical street-legal version of that thing for the same price? Looks pretty darn big compared to a Leaf.

I'm wondering if it would even fit between parallel parking lines. Seems very long. And there are different kinds of practicality. I'm all for a longer range, but I also want to be able to carry a decent amount of stuff--even if there are passengers--and have reasonable safety. If total cost was all I worried about I'd get a Honda 50.

 

[sheepdog]

I think you massively overestimate the feasibility of this. Improving aerodynamics of a car by 10 or 20% may be possible with smart and technically challenging adjustments, but factors of 2 or 3? Forget it.

I used the "Seven" as an example for range purposes. I think the Edison2 VLCE is more aesthetically pleasing.

Tesla Model S....85kwh 89mpge
Illuminati Seven 33kwh 207.5mpge Seven | Illuminati Motor Works
Edison2 VLCE....10kwh 245mpge (350mpge Xprize drive cycle) Edison2 - Electric VLC
Dave Clouds' Dolphin....214mpge (Just for fun: 2,000+lbs lead acid 200 miles range $3,000 conversion) Dave Clouds 214 MPG Geo Metro (aka The Dolphin) : TreeHugger

I realize these vehicles have a small if any chance of being mass produced by a big manufacturer. I would just like to enlighten people how feasible a long range highway EV is using today's technology in an economical way. If people knew what could be achieved through aerodynamics, maybe they would demand more from automakers. You can have twice the range on the same battery, or the same range with half the battery cost. There are basic calculations that prove how much efficiency is improved with a lower coefficient of drag. The Edison2 is .16cd, compared to .19cd for the EV1, and .28cd for the Nissan Leaf. Range is the single biggest issue for mass electric cars adoption. But aerodynamics will also make a less costly EV.

It takes 8hp to sustain 55mph in my car. 70% or 5.67hp is used just to push the air out of the way. 30% or 2.35hp is used to overcome rolling resistance.

 

[dsm363]

A Very Light Electric Car is Much Better than the Model S or Model E Oliver ...

Your point on aerodynamics is valid but that Geo Metro link you provided only fits two adults. I'd imagine it doesn't fit much luggage. It also has a top speed of 72mph which is lower than the speed limit of even parts of the US. Aerodynamics above everything else won't sell cars.

Tesla did a great job of making the Model S look good but also be very aerodynamic. They would do even more if they could get rid of side view mirrors.

 

[woof]

Does anyone have a feel for how much regulation (US and/or EU) gets in the way of aerodynamic design? We know about the side view mirrors from the Model X, but what about others? For example, I've seen it said that EU pedestrian safety requirements have encouraged the higher hood lines we see on cars today.

 

[RobStark]

NVH on the VLC and similar are not acceptable to the vast majority of real customers in the industrialized countries.

We have more than a few people bitch'n about the interior fit and finish in the Model S and the comfort of the seats.

Infotainement systems in these cars are not acceptable.

Selling VLC and the like to mainstream auto customers is like trying to sell kale-tofu salads to people buying bacon cheeseburgers.

Model S is like organic grass fed free range bacon cheeseburgers.

 

[Canuck]

Model S is like organic grass fed free range bacon cheeseburgers.

Accepting your anology is true, that's a huge difference to me. I hate how pigs, which are similar in temperament and intelligence to dogs, are factory farmed. I don't eat bacon cheesebugers for that reason alone.

 

[RobStark]

Accepting your anology is true, that's a huge difference to me. I hate how pigs, which are similar in temperament and intelligence to dogs, are factory farmed. I don't eat bacon cheesebugers for that reason alone.

But a super majority of Americans disagree with you.

You will also have a hard time peddling kale-tofu salads to mainstream Europeans.

The VLC may do well in India.

 

[Canuck]

But a super majority of Americans disagree with you.

You will also have a hard time peddling kale-tofu salads to mainstream Europeans.

No tofu needed (I hate the stuff). We just need to change the way we factory farm animals. I fish (and want to take up hunting) but the fish I catch just had one bad day. They were not tortured their entire lives. I also don't believe what you say about the "majority of Americans." The problem in the States is not with majority rule. It's with "special interest" and "lobbyist" rule. Gun control is a prime example. Australia had a few bad experience with mass shootings. They changed their gun control laws (to similar to what all first world countries have, including Canada) and sure enough not one mass shooting since 1996 when they changed their laws. They also came from a "wild west" and "frontier" mentality. Just like car batteries and weight, we have to start somewhere.

Hmmm... I guess I don't qualify...

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