Advice on a used Model S 90D

[dan_uk]

Hey Guys,

Apologies for another used Model S thread, I really have trawled through the threads for as much information as I could but would appreciate some advice on my specific purchase.

For a bit of background, I will be moving from a 2005 Honda Civic Type R, it's the car of my youth and i've had it for over 10 years now, it truly feels like its time to move onto something more refined and grown up and we now have a little one on the way. A Model S has been my dream car for a long while and i'm dead set on getting one despite some of the issues I've seen some people have.

As it will be the biggest car purchase I have made so far I really would appreciate the advice on my options which I have found are the following:

A. 2017/2018 Model S 75D with fairly low mileage 20-30k
B. 2017 Model S 90D with 25-35k mileage
C. 2017/2018 Model S 100D with 50-60k mileage


I know mileage should mean little with these cars but I do really want something with a clean interior and I feel like approaching 50-60k doesn't quite get you me that, but it would get me the extended range and potentially longer life from the battery as it eventually degrades. I also like the fact it will charge faster as well.
I don't think I would make use of the range of the 100D on a daily basis but it would be very useful for some of my journeys which i've checked with a planner app.

The 90D appears to be the middle ground here, although I do give up a year of battery warranty and i'm concerned about issues with the 90 battery pack, I have found a car that seems ideal with only 30k+ mileage, MCU2, EAP and the cold weather pack in the right colour combination i'm looking for and within range of my budget. The battery version is 1088790-00-A. I believe this to be the older battery pack which may have degradation issues? It supposedly has 268 miles at full charge which seems to be around 94%?

It seems to be the ideal choice for me but i'm really nervous I buy a car which ends up with less range than a 75D, weighs more and is potentially a year older...

What do you think? I'm tempted to go for it but I keep going back to the other options... 100D who cares about mileage, slightly newer with longer warranty, 75D its practically new with such low mileage but a lot less range and slower charging, or 90D which seems ideal until I read about all the issues with this particuar battery pack.

 

[PCMc]

Here's my two cents based upon owning a mid-2016 refresh front end AP1 MD90D at the end of June 2016. I didn't have a Type R, but the "toy" that my MS90D replaced was a 2001 Honda S2000, so I understand the need for more room with your family expanding.

I would say you'll never regret the extra range of a 100D, but I also fully understand the need to balance cost/capability.

I'm a bit of a data nerd and have tracked my charging stats since I purchased the car, first with a 3rd party 'share ware' program and now with my own python script to pull the data over the API. I'm at about 74k miles at the moment, about 45% of my total miles traveled/charged is via supercharging, the balance on L2 charging, typically at around 9.6 kW (240V/40 amp). My car is showing 268-270 rated range in miles. For me that's about 8.5% down from the stated 294 rated miles when new (note: I don't know now to compare this directly to what you're quoted as the US rated range value is different than the EU values).

Here's a chart of what my battery history looks like, plotted in terms of odometer miles.

Data is taken from simple ratio of the displayed rated range at the end of each charging session. I know many will argue that the only valid way is you need to fully charge the car to 100%, but I'd challenge anyone to pick out the 25 or so of the over 1100 datapoints and tell me which at the few that were charged to 100%. The one thing I do that helps reduce the numerical noise is to let charging shut off on it's one. That's where when I charge to say 70 or 80%, it's a consistent percent value versus the numerical noise of is 80% actually 79.51% versus 80.49%. That may seem overly picky, but does help take out quite a bit of noise in the data.

Honestly I think the greater consideration on the 90D is just it likely having about 1 year less of the battery and drive train warranty. I think if your budget and condition of the 100D works for you, I'd lean that way, but I would not shy away from the higher mileage on the 90D.

Good luck on your decision!

PCMc

 

[dan_uk]

Thank you for your very detailed response! This is exactly what I was looking for and I have to applaud you for your data collection efforts and the choice of your previous car

The data correlates very well with the 2017 Model S 90D i'm looking at, would you be able to confirm your battery revision number?
This particular 90D is at 30k miles and has 268miles of range (EPA) with battery 1088790-00-A. This seems to be fairly similar to your data, although I would have no idea on how the car was charged until this point.
I do like the fact that the car would still have greater range than a 75D at your current mileage if it continues to trend in the same way, although I would be interested if there are any others here who have tracked their battery degradation in a similar way.

My current choices are a 90D with 30k miles with 268 at full charge, or a 75D with just 17k miles 2018, or a 100D with 55k miles 2018.

As you say the loss of 1 year battery and warranty may be the biggest thing but I feel like the 90D is right in the middle in terms of wear and tear and battery range.

Does anyone have any further information on what 90 battery packs are known to be more stable?

 

[Made in CA]

As a former owner of two 2015 Model S’s I would highly recommend a new Model 3 or Y over a used S of those vintages. We had a 85D that my wife drove and a P90D that was my primary car. I traded the P90D in for a 2022 Model Y Performance last June. I purchased the P90D new in Nov. 2015 and it had only 27,000 miles on it.

You seem most concerned about the battery, which you should be, but there are many other potential issues. I babied my P90D. It was garaged every night and had a cover on it at my office whenever possible. But it was not aging well. The interior trim was delaminating on 3 of the door panels and the headliner. Two of the door panels were on the rear doors and those seats were used maybe 20 times in the whole time we had it. It developed numerous rattles and the door handles were starting to breakdown one by one. My next big worry was the air shocks going out. In the last 2 years it was in the shop 3-4 times a year for out of warranty repairs (battery heater, door handles, 12v batteries, etc).

I did the MCU2 upgrade out of necessity and would consider that to be a requirement. It made such a difference. The last repair we made was replacing the front drive unit about 3 months before we traded it in. It was covered under the 8 year warranty but it took 2 months to get the parts.

I loved the P90D but the MYP is a much better car in so many ways. The biggest is the charging speed and range, of course, but also build quality and more current tech.

 

[PCMc]

@dan_uk - sorry, I do not have the revision number of my battery recorded. I'd go check it for you, but I'm currently out of the country on expat assignment so unable to go inspect under the car to confirm it for you. Sorry!

 

[dannycamps]

My current choices are a 90D with 30k miles with 268 at full charge, or a 75D with just 17k miles 2018, or a 100D with 55k miles 2018.

Of these three (assuming pricing is similar), I'd go for the 2018 100D for two reasons:

1. Range is king. Even if the 100D battery is 10% degraded (unlikely), it will still get over 300 miles of rated range at 100%. Now in reality with Tesla, the rated range is not really representative of real world but believe me, you will go much further in a 100D than you will in a 75D.

2. If the 100D was built after March of 2018, it will have the MCU 2 unit already installed. It will also have the FSD 2.5 cameras (which the 90D most likely would not have).

Mileage is not as important as age with these cars and TBH, the difference between 30k and 55k is kind of negligible.

 

[father_of_6]

New Model 3.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see the draw towards a 5 years used and very expensive to repair vehicle with a lot of older technology. That car could become such a money pit... and a brand new Model 3 might even be cheaper.

What does the Model S really have over the Model 3? A little more interior room? Status?

The interior of the Model 3 is pretty roomy for what looks like a small car on the outside.

If you haven't driven one yet, I strongly recommend you at least test drive a Model 3 first.

 

[NikoV6]

Hmmm! As an owner of a 75D, 4 years and 80K miles.

Our car has been generally excellent, but just had to have the rear drive unit replaced and I suspect the front needs doing too, Ranger coming today to take a listen. It has had front drive shafts done twice, ticking under dash repaired, drivers door handle (rear passenger failing now), yellow bands on screens done twice and has the normal S creaks from various bits of trim. When washed and cleaned though visually it looks brand new.

I would agree with the comments above, range is king. We looked to trade to a 100D recently but after having a loaner 3 long range P- are having second thoughts!!

We then drove a Model Y and are really having to think again. I really thought that I would not like the Y but it is very hard to not to!

I suspect our next car will be a Y Performance, recommend you take a test drive

 

[KalJoMoS]

In the last 2 years it was in the shop 3-4 times a year for out of warranty repairs (battery heater, door handles, 12v batteries, etc).

These items are not 90D specific, all older cars suffers from these. I can add AC condenser core reapeir to that list, mine is 03/16 70D. Mine has not been that regular service visitor and I managed to repair my drivers door handle on my own.

 

[David_Cary]

Funny - I hated the Y on a test drive (hate the height). We have a 2019 3 and 2015 70D. The 3 is more fun in town but the ride on the S is way better. It is more grown up for sure but the 3 does quite nicely - and will feel more like a nimble Honda.
Whether you can live with the 3's trunk is the issue. I think most would be fine if there is access to another car from time to time. But people vary a lot in this.
You might choose to have that 60 inch TV delivered. Big deal.
Interesting - no door handle or 12V battery causes the car to be in the "shop". Sure, they cost money but no "shop" time. That is a fairly significant difference if you value your time. Of course, every car will chew up a 12V battery and the fully installed cost is about $200 and done in your driveway.
Mileage just doesn't matter. Time matters.

 

[Anth89]

I'm owing both .. A 2001 S2000 (which I keep as a collector car) and a 100D. Both are among the best cars I ever had.

My own thoughts:

- 1088870 is the 90D V3 battery, no particular degradation issues.

- how the interior ages is definitively more related to how the previous owners took care of it than to the mileage. I've seen a very ugly interior of a 90D with only 40 000km. My own 100D has 140 000km and its interior is almost like new, while being white.

- From all the Model S I've seen I would also add that theses vinyl 'vegan' leather seem to age better than the previous "real" leather.

- The Model S is definitively a "GT" : space and comfort on long rides. Now when I take my S2000 I find it exhausting - but still a great fun to drive.

- As such the 100D battery maximises this mindset. Not only can you drive long distances without restricting your speed, but it also has the advantage to charge at an higher power than 75/90D.

- When it comes to maintenance what probably matters most is the build year : the later the better. There are a lot of technical improvements from one year to another. Facelift is a huge step. Generation 3 interior also ages better. Gen1 Model S can be a challenge. Gen 2/3 definitively much more reliable, but will not reach a brand new 3/Y on that matter, it remains a much more complex car.

 

[dan_uk]

Thanks for all the responses, especailly confirmation on the battery pack version on the 90D.

I have test driven the model 3 and it's just not for me, its a much harsher ride and this wasn't even the performance version. The missing driver screen and the seats which are just nowhere near as comfortable put me off. It's a shame in a way, for my budget I could get a practically new M3P but i'm really looking for a more refined "GT" car which it just is not. Maybe one day ill replace the Type R with the M3P though
Unfortunately the Model Y is also outside of my price range, as they are still very new.

I really agree with the mindset of newer is better/safer and i'm now inclined to go with a 75D, i've found one with just 17k mileage, Sept 2018 with MCU2/EAP 2.5 and Cold weather pack (I seriously dig the heated steering wheel, I had no idea it was something that would be important to me)
I understand it will lose value as the warranty starts to drop, but with the mileage I cover in a year, in just a couple years it would still be below 30k and would probably sell easily if I wanted/needed to upgrade.

I think i've got this down to a 2 horse race between the 75D and 90D, and just need to think things through carefully. 1 year less warranty and 13k miles vs a smaller battery pack. I think I need to do more research on the differences between a 2017 and 2018 S as well.

I did note that a lot of you are state side and one person in France, so I can certainly see the appeal of more range, our country is tiny and there's not many places I would go that would take more than a single charge.

@PCMc - thank you again for your detailed information and good luck on your assignment

 

[Anth89]

True...main interest of bigger batteries comes for trips above 400-500 km.

If you go for a 75D check whether it is uncorked (0 to 100km in 4.4sec instead of 5.4). It came standard after a certain production date (I think mid-17, but not sure), was optional before. 90Ds and 100Ds accelerate that fast regardless of the production date.

Regarding differences between 2017 and 2018 the most obvious ones are the 3rd gen seats (after mid-17, rear seats are easy to recognize) and MCU2 directly from factory (around March 18, can be retrofit on earlier cars).

Good luck!

 

[NikoV6]

Ours is a Sept 2018 75D and while I would like more range it has never been a problem in the UK or on a trip to Spain. Even in cold weather it will do 150miles between charges (no hypermiling!) which is fine on the Supercharger network.

and they will do 0-60 in 4.0, I think someone on here clocked theirs

 

[matt_micalizzi]

I recently purchased a 2016 Model S 75D after cancelling an order for a M3 Standard Range and it was a tough decision but ultimately the right one for my family. The Model S is wider than the 3 and can comfortably accomodate my family of 5 where the back seat in is really practical for only 2. The other big thing for me is that I transport 2 large dogs which I can easily do with my Model S as the setup is a liftback so a simple cargo fence keeps them in my trunk and lets me move my entire family too. As an electrical engineer I would have chosen the Model 3 had it provided the same functionality because it has a more efficient Star motor instead of an induction type and the standard range use iron based batteries which are more stable and last much longer than the cobalt based 18650/2680/4680 (5000 cycle rated vs 1500 cycles of 18650 with the other form factors presumably similar) and its simpler overall thus will likely be cheaper to own over the long run however I am happy with my choice. Range isnt as much an issue as many newbies angst about... Tesla has done a fantasic job of proliferating supercharger stations and has a easy and intitive route planner that considers the charging requirements along the way. In one month I piled up 5k miles driving around the country and had zero issues getting to the next charge. a 100 kWh pack would have saved me a few stops but not enough to warrant by me.

 

[dan_uk]

Just an update, I have put a deposit down on a Feb 2019 75D with 21k miles on the clock. Confirmed it has EAP 2.5, Cold weather pack and MCU2. The only thing is it has the half leather/textile seats so I’ll see how those are in person on the weekend.

It worked out to be 5k cheaper than the 2017 90D and I’ve gotten over my range anxiety, I live in a small country and will probably visit a supercharger 1-2 a year max. If I had gotten the larger battery, it would have done very little for me and I prefer the safety of a longer warranty and could sell for an upgrade in the future easier.

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It does have the yellow banding on the screen which I’ll try and push for a discount on but it’s also still in warranty for a month

Would appreciate any tips on what I should look out for when I check it on the weekend.

I’ve asked them to charge it for me, how would I work out the theoretical range and degradation?

 

[dan_uk]

Just an update, I have put a deposit down on a Feb 2019 75D with 21k miles on the clock. Confirmed it has EAP 2.5, Cold weather pack and MCU2. The only thing is it has the half leather/textile seats so I’ll see how those are in person on the weekend.

It worked out to be 5k cheaper than the 2017 90D and I’ve gotten over my range anxiety, I live in a small country and will probably visit a supercharger 1-2 a year max. If I had gotten the larger battery, it would have done very little for me and I prefer the safety of a longer warranty and could sell for an upgrade in the future easier.

It does have the yellow banding on the screen which I’ll try and push for a discount on but it’s also still in warranty for a month

Would appreciate any tips on what I should look out for when I check it on the weekend.

I’ve asked them to charge it for me, how would I work out the theoretical range and degradation?

 

[Anth89]

I'll be provocative but I think degradation is the only thing you should not care about...

It is difficult to measure it really accurately, even with a dongle and an app. Many factors can influence measurement (battery temperature, recent charging habits and BMS measurement drifting, etc.). Furthermore it is hard to tell you what value should really be expected in your case (4, 5%?).

Even using SMT, I had fluctuating values on my own car, depending on what was my use of the weeks prior to measurement.

This car is 3 years old only and has not been used much (which makes probability of BMS unaccuracy more likely). Furthermore common problems encountered with Model S batteries are not related to degradation.

I would more focus on usual defects like halfshafts vibration, led signature defects. And things that should not be forgotten on any used car (car history, previous accidents, checking that the car options are in line with the ad, etc.).

 

[WallysRide]

Just an update, I have put a deposit down on a Feb 2019 75D with 21k miles on the clock. Confirmed it has EAP 2.5, Cold weather pack and MCU2. The only thing is it has the half leather/textile seats so I’ll see how those are in person on the weekend.

It worked out to be 5k cheaper than the 2017 90D and I’ve gotten over my range anxiety, I live in a small country and will probably visit a supercharger 1-2 a year max. If I had gotten the larger battery, it would have done very little for me and I prefer the safety of a longer warranty and could sell for an upgrade in the future easier.

It does have the yellow banding on the screen which I’ll try and push for a discount on but it’s also still in warranty for a month

Would appreciate any tips on what I should look out for when I check it on the weekend.

I’ve asked them to charge it for me, how would I work out the theoretical range and degradation?

Make sure they do not charge it to 100% for you, because then it would be sitting there at a 100% charge, which is not good for the battery - it's one of the more important things to avoid doing to the battery (charge it to full and leave it sitting that way). You can guesstimate the full range at a charge of 80 to 90 percent.

 

[dan_uk]

Make sure they do not charge it to 100% for you, because then it would be sitting there at a 100% charge, which is not good for the battery - it's one of the more important things to avoid doing to the battery (charge it to full and leave it sitting that way). You can guesstimate the full range at a charge of 80 to 90 percent.

Thanks for this, I actually just called them and they were genuinely going to charge to 100% and leave it until my test drive on Saturday! Just caught it at 80%