AP1 Promises That Never Came To Be

[MP3Mike]

This isn't even a close call. Tesla is not going to burn bridges with customers over $3,000 if FSDC becomes an issue. They provided a list of features, priced it at $3,000 and sold it. They either deliver or provide the refund. Very simple.

But they have never said when they would deliver the feature, and they said subject to regulatory approval. So they could continue to just say we are working on it forever and never refund anyone.

How about this example: You buy your car, pay for the EAP+FSDC options, and you total it before they even release the EAP feature set. Do you think they are going to refund you even a penny? Are they going to apply that money toward the next car you buy? No and No.

 

[MrAustraliaTax]

Model S will be able to steer to stay within a lane, change lanes with the simple tap of a turn signal, and manage speed by reading road signs and using active, traffic aware cruise control.

And all that was indeed implemented.

Nope, not fully implemented (thank goodness).

It reads almost all speed signs (in Australia) incorrectly, and dangerously so. There are plenty of times I am on a 100km/h freeway and the speed sign displayed on the dashboard is 40km/h. Very, very pleased that the car doesn't act on its error.

Now that AP 2 is out, I seriously doubt that AP 1 will get much more attention (just like the classic pre-AP cars have had very little attention paid to them). C'est la vie.

 

[RocketGoBoom]

But they have never said when they would deliver the feature, and they said subject to regulatory approval. So they could continue to just say we are working on it forever and never refund anyone.

Tesla cannot take forever and never refund anyone. Most Tesla owners are not retarded.

The same thing happened with the carbon fiber T top for the Roadsters. I think I took delivery of the Roadster during the summer of 2009 and I didn't have my $5,000 carbon fiber top. Tesla had only delivered the default soft cloth tops. At some point during 2010 I just requested my $5,000 to be returned and I had a check Fedex'd to me within a few days. It was easy.

If the FSDC $3,000 option is blocked by regulatory issues, then I can assure you that EVERYONE will be getting a $3,000 refund. In that case Tesla never should have offered it for sale.

Some of you guys seem to think that Tesla never does refunds for options that get delayed or never happen. I can assure you from personal experience, Tesla DOES provide refunds on options if they fail to deliver. They are not going to burn bridges with someone on their third Tesla with a Model 3 also reserved (like me).

How about this example: You buy your car, pay for the EAP+FSDC options, and you total it before they even release the EAP feature set. Do you think they are going to refund you even a penny? Are they going to apply that money toward the next car you buy? No and No.

That is an issue between you and your insurance company. The analogy doesn't apply.

 

[mblakele]

Model S will be able to steer to stay within a lane, change lanes with the simple tap of a turn signal, and manage speed by reading road signs and using active, traffic aware cruise control.



Nope, not implemented (thank goodness).

It reads almost all speed signs (in Australia) incorrectly, and dangerously so. There are plenty of times I am on a 100km/h freeway and the speed sign displayed on the dashboard is 40km/h. Very, very pleased that the car doesn't act on its error.

Maybe that depends on your definition of "manage speed"? My car presets the TACC speed based on road signs. But once TACC is engaged, it doesn't change speed based on road signs. If had that feature I'd probably want to turn it off. But I figure the current behavior qualifies as managing speed.

 

[u00mem9]

Sorry but I'm not buying the idea that they have to over promise to push the envelope.

Honestly, there is zero reason this change is happening before AEB and TACC are ready except a need to sell stock at the highest value possible. All the stodgy OEMs that do unhip things like sell vehicles for more than it costs to manufacture them are somehow able to validate AEB and TACC systems without the help of 'test customers'.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Now that AP 2 is out, I seriously doubt that AP 1 will get much more attention (just like the classic pre-AP cars have had very little attention paid to them). C'est la vie.

They do have one thing in common, and that is the radar. They haven't finished the AEB changes that they plan on making. So I expect this to be the last big enhancement of AP 1.0 before it goes into a code sustaining (bug fixing, etc) state.

I expect to see the AEB radar activation changes in firmware 8.1 or before 8.1. But, I do acknowledge that we might not see them. Where Tesla decides that it's not worth the risk of false positives.

 

[green1]

They've basically delivered none of the promised features of AP1.0
Hands free on ramp to offramp? Nope
Picking you up at your front door on private property? Nope
Adjusting speed based on signs? Nope
Stop signs and red lights recognized? Nope
Emergency brakeing that avoids a collision? Nope
Blind spot monitoring? Not even this basic one got done.

Sure the autopilot is way ahead of any competitors, but that's not the point, the point is that they promised it would do a lot more than it actually does. They lied, and they've made it clear they have no intention of ever living up to their promises.

Tesla pushes the envelope. But that is not a blank cheque to lie to the public, and there's no reason you can't be on the cutting edge and be honest about what you can do.

 

[RocketGoBoom]

They've basically delivered none of the promised features of AP1.0
Hands free on ramp to offramp? Nope
Picking you up at your front door on private property? Nope
Adjusting speed based on signs? Nope
Stop signs and red lights recognized? Nope
Emergency brakeing that avoids a collision? Nope
Blind spot monitoring? Not even this basic one got done.

Sure the autopilot is way ahead of any competitors, but that's not the point, the point is that they promised it would do a lot more than it actually does. They lied, and they've made it clear they have no intention of ever living up to their promises.

I am not in a position to be upset about that issue. My 2013 has none of that tech so I never paid for it or expected it.

However if I were the owner of a 2015-2016 car with AP 1 hardware that I purchased with all of those promised features, then I would be talking to Tesla about it right about now.

I was not paying attention to this issue in 2015/2016 when it was happening. I stopped reading Tesla forums a few months after I got my 2013 MS. I only restarted reading about this stuff now because I am upgrading. So I am not fully in tune with what Tesla promised about AP1 features, the prices paid, etc.

If it was me, I would make it an issue with Tesla. If they ignored me, I might even go so far as to file a small claims court case for whatever the price of AP1 was. It only costs $25 (in my county) to file in small claims and it certainly would get your dispute upgraded to premium customer service within Tesla. If you have something in articles or Tesla official blogs or anything official that says AP 1 would do A, B and C, and here we are in late 2016 with AP 1 not doing A, B and C .... that is an issue.

 

[Canuck]

Sure the autopilot is way ahead of any competitors, but that's not the point, the point is that they promised it would do a lot more than it actually does. They lied, and they've made it clear they have no intention of ever living up to their promises.

You can say for a fact that Tesla intended to deceive? Because that's the definition of what you said above that I have underlined. Please provide the basis for such a categorical statement. Now, if it's just your opinion, you should say it as such. I'm the last one to say people must always say their comments here are their opinions, because that's usually obvious, but for something as damaging and derogatory as calling someone, or a company, a liar, I suggest that the caveat of it being your opinion is prudent to do for your own self-interest, despite being the right thing to do if you have no facts to support your statement, and if it's not an opinion then to state facts proving such a damaging allegation.

In my opinion, Tesla made the promises with good intentions. Overly optimistic good intentions perhaps, based on the limited hardware and speed of the processor, but good intentions none the less. That's very different than lying.

 

[RocketGoBoom]

In my opinion, Tesla made the promises with good intentions. Overly optimistic good intentions perhaps, based on the limited hardware and speed of the processor, but good intentions none the less. That's very different than lying.

I think anyone that has watched Tesla and Elon for a few years is aware of Elon being a very optimistic fellow in terms of his dreams and the timing of execution of his plans. We all like that about him and joke about it. Tesla's culture is a reflection of Elon in that way.

But at the end of the day, that doesn't excuse Tesla from the obligation to deliver features that they are selling and accepting payment for. If they cannot deliver on their overly optimistic features they sold customers in AP1 or AP2, then there are going to be refunds required. Many customers might not pursue the issue, however those that do will likely get some sort or refund or credit. That is just how this works.

Hands free on ramp to offramp? Nope
Picking you up at your front door on private property? Nope
Adjusting speed based on signs? Nope
Stop signs and red lights recognized? Nope

If people were sold those features in AP1, as listed by another post above, then Tesla likely has an issue that some AP1 owners are going to call them on it. It might not make the news. But I suspect some AP1 owners are quietly getting some sort of credit or refund. I know I would be getting something if I were in that situation.

 

[green1]

I think the issue is that if you ask for a refund, they'll likely do so in exchange for taking away the parts that do work. (Refund the dollar value on the sticker of the autopilot convenience features, and software disable them) I bet it's all or nothing. So do I try for a refund and lose the amazing autopilot I have? Or live with the fact that I'll never have what they promised?

If it didn't work at all it would be easy, give me my money back. But it does amazing stuff that no other manufacturer can do, and I don't want to lose that, even though it's nowhere near what was promised.

 

[RocketGoBoom]

I think the issue is that if you ask for a refund, they'll likely do so in exchange for taking away the parts that do work. (Refund the dollar value on the sticker of the autopilot convenience features, and software disable them) I bet it's all or nothing. So do I try for a refund and lose the amazing autopilot I have? Or live with the fact that I'll never have what they promised?

If it didn't work at all it would be easy, give me my money back. But it does amazing stuff that no other manufacturer can do, and I don't want to lose that, even though it's nowhere near what was promised.

That is where negotiations come into play. If you feel AP1 is only living up to about 50% of the features promised (which seem about accurate), then I suspect you could negotiate a 50% refund of whatever you paid for the AP1 option.

Tesla customer loyalty executives are not looking for a war and they certainly don't want bad publicity. From what I have read from others here, AP1 has not delivered on some of the past features that it was sold as offering.

There are 10s of thousands of cars that have AP1. I am highly doubtful that 100% of those owners are just forgiving Tesla on this issue. There have been or will be some refunds involved, either partial or full. And I am also sure that Tesla is trying to keep that as quiet as possible.

 

[green1]

Well I've had some pretty big talks with Tesla about various issues where they are ignoring their responsibilities, and so far the only people I can even talk to are the local reps who don't have the authority to do anything at all. There seems to be no way to get ahold of anyone with the authority to make real decisions. Which means the only way to get anywhere would be an actual legal challenge. Even small claims court is quite costly from a time and effort stand point, and I suspect they're betting people won't bother. For me personally I'm sort of "on hold" at the moment. I'm at a point where I'm not sure it's worth the bother because I've managed to work around them a bit, but if they do anything else then they'll either have to provide someone I can talk to with real authority, or I'll have to start investigating resolutions outside their company.

 

[RocketGoBoom]

Well I've had some pretty big talks with Tesla about various issues where they are ignoring their responsibilities, and so far the only people I can even talk to are the local reps who don't have the authority to do anything at all. There seems to be no way to get ahold of anyone with the authority to make real decisions. Which means the only way to get anywhere would be an actual legal challenge. Even small claims court is quite costly from a time and effort stand point, and I suspect they're betting people won't bother. For me personally I'm sort of "on hold" at the moment. I'm at a point where I'm not sure it's worth the bother because I've managed to work around them a bit, but if they do anything else then they'll either have to provide someone I can talk to with real authority, or I'll have to start investigating resolutions outside their company.

Yeah, I would go the small claims route to get upgraded to "premium customer service".

I have done it in other scenarios in order to get past the 1-800 customer service types with no power to get anything done.

Specifically, I did it to Equifax earlier this year when they refused to delete something on my credit file after numerous disputes with snail mail. I just filed a quicky small claims case, had their legal department served via certified mail. Total cost was $25 plus $5 for the certified mail. I had no expectations of actually having the court hearing. The purpose of filing in small claims was to get out of the 800 number and $10 per hour employee circus. Get into a conversation with someone more senior in the company, that is what the small claims filing achieved. And it worked. Everything was fixed within 6 weeks of me filing the case. Equifax deleted the issue and I dismissed with prejudice. Total time I spent on it was maybe 3 or 4 hours.

 

[brianman]

They've basically delivered none of the promised features of AP1.0
..
Adjusting speed based on signs? Nope

You're partially incorrect on this one. When driving from a 60mph zone to 55mph on undivided highway, if you have Autosteer (with TACC) your speed will drop from 65mph to 60mph.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

You're partially incorrect on this one. When driving from a 60mph zone to 55mph on undivided highway, if you have Autosteer (with TACC) your speed will drop from 65mph to 60mph.

He doesn't have 7.1 so he's never experienced that. He's become our official historian.

 

[outie]

So no one has pointed out that Autopilot and Summon are still in beta? The hardware came out in 2014 and the features started appearing in 2015 (1 year after) and to this date 10/2016 (another year) the features are still in beta and are quite quirky still. I am pretty sure they said the car could meet you in private driveway. We are talking about AP1 that's only like 1/10 or much less of the complexity of AP2/FSFC and it took them 2 years without completion. Is history going to repeat itself or is the AP2 hardware all of a sudden going to allow them to move things forward at an accelerated speed? We'll see.

 

[commasign]

The "adjust speed based on road signs" feature is something they still could add, using "fleet learning" to deal with recognition and interpretation errors.

 

[David_Cary]

I wonder if the best time for filing in small claims would be near the end of a lease. I leased May 15 and when May 18 rolls around, I can unequivocally say that I didn't get what was promised. Might also be a good time to get a good Tesla credit.... So maybe file 3 months before end of lease.

Maybe Tesla could just give a credit for us poor AP1 turning in leases? Call it a loyalty credit - no need to admit liability or wrongdoing.

 

[Gregkeys]

I'm expecting that FSDC will be available in December but it's going to basically be an enhanced version of lane assist, able to read stop signs, finally read speed limits properly, turn out of a simple driveway and take you to the freeway all while nagging you to keep hands on the wheel and alert at all times.

I don't expect that you'll be able to send it over to pick up yout buddies and bring them to your house.

I don't expect that you'll be able to nap or watch a movie while driving to work.

I don't expect level 5 (maybe) ever with this hardware suite.

I think that they will need more radars or even longer range ultrasonic sensors simply because I don't think what they described will be able to get out of my driveway.

My driveway has very low visibility, a hill to the left and a blind spot to the right, with cars traveling 50+ mph

I don't think the radar or the ultrasonic sensors could see all the possible dangers and know when the right time to pull out will be because only the cameras would be able to determine that with the angles i deal with and the cameras won't be pointing in the right directions.

I think they will be able to get very close but will probably need to whitelist and blacklist the places it's safe to drive with the current generation hardware.