AP2 - Definitely heading in the WRONG direction...

[Didi]

So is the update rolling out yet? I've been waiting all wekend and nothing...
Meanwhile, with my current version (17.17.17), the side lines seems doing less "shaking" since a couple of weeks ago... just an impression?

Yes, I have the same impression. Looks like the car is learning or the cams are sending pics to the cloud for the others drivers etc.
Still on 17.17.17. After calling Tesla they told me that they start today with the first 500 MS drivers. Wiil take several days before getting new FW. They can not push manually the new FW?!

 

[buttershrimp]

Can someone explain the latest theory on the departure of mobile eye? And the latest theory on early releases to counter act consumer reports downgrades? As a newish owner (5400 miles) I'm curious if the company has top talent in autopilot development, or if the Elons tweets are like trump tweets with the autopilot team cringing every time a promise is made.

 

[jddssc121]

Can someone explain the latest theory on the departure of mobile eye?

I don't think theories are needed as to the Mobileye... it was quite a public breakup

One example -> . Tesla Breakup With Mobileye Turns Ugly

 

[buttershrimp]

Thanks for the link, I remember reading that article previously... I guess I'm wondering if that is what really happened? For instance, my working theory is that this wasn't as much about the first big autopilot failure, but that it heightened tensions and forced both Mobile eye and tesla to dig in... Mobile eye really wanted to own the autonomous car movement and get paid... and tesla has never wanted to fully depend on them... as they seem that they've been intent on developing their own tech in house.... which is why they went after the other folks leaving tesla ... by at the end of the day I'm wondering how much faith does everyone on this forum have at tesla's ability to keep and develop the talent to fully lead the autonomous driving movement?

 

[tldavis11]

I have a problem and need advice. I drive a wonderful P85DL (AP1) with 50k miles. Indeed AP has been trustworthy on highways and some help on local roads for over a year. Fantastic car. Fantastic service. It makes me smile every day. I just wish it were a hardtop convertible.

I was proded into ordering an AP2 90D by the promise of "last chance for free supercharging for life" and fully autonomous driving on December 31, 2016. This new car would be a step down in speed, but a step forward in autopilot capacity into the future.

At that time, I had never heard of Mobileye, had no idea that Tesla was going backwards before going forwards, and that AP2 would have a long incubation period before it was equal to AP1 (if ever). I do highway driving for overnight work, and can't go backwards with safety. Safety is paramount. The sales pitch and online data said NOTHING about not having AP1 functionality on day one, only that the new capabilities would be developed over time (keyword NEW). I was told and believed that Tesla would provide a new car with old software capability and that the new hardware and functionality would only add to the old over time. Again, no notice from them and no idea that my new car wouldn't have the things I already use: excellent traffic aware cruise control, reliable autosteer up to 90mph, auto lane change, auto speed limit match, auto wipers, auto headlight dimming, I just new it wouldn't yet probably have auto freeway entry/exit, auto navigate, auto turn, auto stoplight and stop sign negotiation, those things which would be so cool to see coming any day now (or so I was told), but now might be all vaporware.

When I discovered via reading these forums in January that Tesla had NOT told the whole truth about losing access to all their prior AP1 technology, I cancelled my order. The car though was built faster than anyone would ever expect, and I was told I couldn't cancel, I would lose my $2500 deposit. I said OK, when AP2 is as good as AP1, I'll take delivery then. The salespeople thought that would be great, they believed Elon's tweets and thought in a few weeks they could deliver my car. So they held it a few weeks.

No such luck, obviously. In February I began asking for my deposit back. First salesman said okay to transferring it to a future order, but then I was told no, and because time had passed, no recourse. The regional sales manager called and told me no options, reasons were about having to be fair to others. But not many others (prior Tesla owners) in my situation wanting my deposit back, so I told her I would escalate. I think I have about 5 years to figure out how to do that, to get my deposit back. That might be credit towards my Model 3 or my next Model S if there is one worth buying. But at this point I'm not sure if I will ever buy another. After a truly wonderful experience with my first car and its servicing, they dropped the ball big time with me.

What option would you choose? $2500 is a lot of money to donate to Tesla, especially under the circumstances. I don't want to reward dishonest business practices. They need to clean up their act. They have been and will be a great company. But right now there are blemishes on their character.

What do you think?

 

[oktane]

I have a problem and need advice. I drive a wonderful P85DL (AP1) with 50k miles. Indeed AP has been trustworthy on highways and some help on local roads for over a year. Fantastic car. Fantastic service. It makes me smile every day. I just wish it were a hardtop convertible.

I was proded into ordering an AP2 90D by the promise of "last chance for free supercharging for life" and fully autonomous driving on December 31, 2016. This new car would be a step down in speed, but a step forward in autopilot capacity into the future.

At that time, I had never heard of Mobileye, had no idea that Tesla was going backwards before going forwards, and that AP2 would have a long incubation period before it was equal to AP1 (if ever). I do highway driving for overnight work, and can't go backwards with safety. Safety is paramount. The sales pitch and online data said NOTHING about not having AP1 functionality on day one, only that the new capabilities would be developed over time (keyword NEW). I was told and believed that Tesla would provide a new car with old software capability and that the new hardware and functionality would only add to the old over time. Again, no notice from them and no idea that my new car wouldn't have the things I already use: excellent traffic aware cruise control, reliable autosteer up to 90mph, auto lane change, auto speed limit match, auto wipers, auto headlight dimming, I just new it wouldn't yet probably have auto freeway entry/exit, auto navigate, auto turn, auto stoplight and stop sign negotiation, those things which would be so cool to see coming any day now (or so I was told), but now might be all vaporware.

When I discovered via reading these forums in January that Tesla had NOT told the whole truth about losing access to all their prior AP1 technology, I cancelled my order. The car though was built faster than anyone would ever expect, and I was told I couldn't cancel, I would lose my $2500 deposit. I said OK, when AP2 is as good as AP1, I'll take delivery then. The salespeople thought that would be great, they believed Elon's tweets and thought in a few weeks they could deliver my car. So they held it a few weeks.

No such luck, obviously. In February I began asking for my deposit back. First salesman said okay to transferring it to a future order, but then I was told no, and because time had passed, no recourse. The regional sales manager called and told me no options, reasons were about having to be fair to others. But not many others (prior Tesla owners) in my situation wanting my deposit back, so I told her I would escalate. I think I have about 5 years to figure out how to do that, to get my deposit back. That might be credit towards my Model 3 or my next Model S if there is one worth buying. But at this point I'm not sure if I will ever buy another. After a truly wonderful experience with my first car and its servicing, they dropped the ball big time with me.

What option would you choose? $2500 is a lot of money to donate to Tesla, especially under the circumstances. I don't want to reward dishonest business practices. They need to clean up their act. They have been and will be a great company. But right now there are blemishes on their character.

What do you think?

I'd get my credit card company to refund it if possible. Despite what they say or liquidation clauses they have you sign, Tesla can't steal your money like that (at least not in CA). If that doesn't work, I'd send a demand letter from my attorney. It's unlikely they won't refund you at that point. If they won't, take them to small claims court. There is a > 90% chance you will win after you explain Tesla's deceit and fraud. If it gets that far make sure you leak it to the press. That's what I would do.

 

[alcibiades]

I have a problem and need advice. I drive a wonderful P85DL (AP1) with 50k miles. Indeed AP has been trustworthy on highways and some help on local roads for over a year. Fantastic car. Fantastic service. It makes me smile every day. I just wish it were a hardtop convertible.

I was proded into ordering an AP2 90D by the promise of "last chance for free supercharging for life" and fully autonomous driving on December 31, 2016. This new car would be a step down in speed, but a step forward in autopilot capacity into the future.

At that time, I had never heard of Mobileye, had no idea that Tesla was going backwards before going forwards, and that AP2 would have a long incubation period before it was equal to AP1 (if ever). I do highway driving for overnight work, and can't go backwards with safety. Safety is paramount. The sales pitch and online data said NOTHING about not having AP1 functionality on day one, only that the new capabilities would be developed over time (keyword NEW). I was told and believed that Tesla would provide a new car with old software capability and that the new hardware and functionality would only add to the old over time. Again, no notice from them and no idea that my new car wouldn't have the things I already use: excellent traffic aware cruise control, reliable autosteer up to 90mph, auto lane change, auto speed limit match, auto wipers, auto headlight dimming, I just new it wouldn't yet probably have auto freeway entry/exit, auto navigate, auto turn, auto stoplight and stop sign negotiation, those things which would be so cool to see coming any day now (or so I was told), but now might be all vaporware.

When I discovered via reading these forums in January that Tesla had NOT told the whole truth about losing access to all their prior AP1 technology, I cancelled my order. The car though was built faster than anyone would ever expect, and I was told I couldn't cancel, I would lose my $2500 deposit. I said OK, when AP2 is as good as AP1, I'll take delivery then. The salespeople thought that would be great, they believed Elon's tweets and thought in a few weeks they could deliver my car. So they held it a few weeks.

No such luck, obviously. In February I began asking for my deposit back. First salesman said okay to transferring it to a future order, but then I was told no, and because time had passed, no recourse. The regional sales manager called and told me no options, reasons were about having to be fair to others. But not many others (prior Tesla owners) in my situation wanting my deposit back, so I told her I would escalate. I think I have about 5 years to figure out how to do that, to get my deposit back. That might be credit towards my Model 3 or my next Model S if there is one worth buying. But at this point I'm not sure if I will ever buy another. After a truly wonderful experience with my first car and its servicing, they dropped the ball big time with me.

What option would you choose? $2500 is a lot of money to donate to Tesla, especially under the circumstances. I don't want to reward dishonest business practices. They need to clean up their act. They have been and will be a great company. But right now there are blemishes on their character.

What do you think?

Two obvious options: contact/file a complaint with the FTC and contact the law firm handling the EAP/FSD class action.

Further, I'd try to deal with Fremont and not regional anything. Regional sales is still sales staff full of salespeople who have ascended by virtue of selling or bro-dom. They might have come from the Olive Garden into DS into OA roles. You need to try to deal with business people. This isn't to impugn salespeople: sales is still a talent and a skill. It's just not what you need to be dealing with on this matter, which is ultimately a legal one.

@Walta Would you feel comfortable sharing a corporate contact with @tldavis11 ?

 

[xav-]

So how close are we from parity? Model 3 future owners want to know.

 

[OilSucks]

Maybe I'm just used to the AP2 system but is it really that bad of a change? I've used AP2 for the past 500 miles on my brand new Model S and it's been an absolute game changer for me.

 

[oktane]

Maybe I'm just used to the AP2 system but is it really that bad of a change? I've used AP2 for the past 500 miles on my brand new Model S and it's been an absolute game changer for me.

Only if you compare it to the AP1 experience. For someone new to Tesla, AP2 still seems ahead of the competition. The problem is, it wasn't what we early AP2 owners were sold. We expected the autopilot to be as good as AP1 from day #1, and vastly improved by December 2016, since it was supposed to be "enhanced" autopilot as opposed to regular autopilot.

What Tesla actually delivered, as of today, is AP 0.5 that lacks basic safety features found on $30,000 cars.

See here:
Tesla owners have filed a class-action lawsuit alleging Autopilot 2 is 'demonstrably dangerous'

 

[tldavis11]

Two obvious options: contact/file a complaint with the FTC and contact the law firm handling the EAP/FSD class action.

Further, I'd try to deal with Fremont and not regional anything. Regional sales is still sales staff full of salespeople who have ascended by virtue of selling or bro-dom. They might have come from the Olive Garden into DS into OA roles. You need to try to deal with business people. This isn't to impugn salespeople: sales is still a talent and a skill. It's just not what you need to be dealing with on this matter, which is ultimately a legal one.

@Walta Would you feel comfortable sharing a corporate contact with @tldavis11 ?

Thanks. These are my thoughts as well. I deliberately hid this question in a related post rather than posting a new thread myself. I don't want to cause any trouble for Tesla. I just want fairness, maybe a change in their approach to the customer, and my money back. The open discussion should probably stop here. You can contact me privately if you like.

 

[Tam]

So how close are we from parity? Model 3 future owners want to know.

I have no AP1 experience but I am very impressed with AP2 so far for the past 3,000 miles (mostly freeways).

1) Avoiding rear ending with a car in front most of the times. I had to brake on my own may be twice when I thought the system wouldn't brake timely.

By contrast, AP1 had quite a few of reports:

40 mph rear ended accident at Lebec, CA

Another driver says Tesla’s autopilot failed to brake; Tesla says otherwise


Rear ended a van in Switzerland

China First Autopilot Crash: rear ended a disabled car:
'Self-driving' in spotlight again as China sees first Tesla autopilot crash



Fatal China crash into street sweeper:

2) Excellent merging. I purposefully moved to right or left side when I see a merge and it has been flawless.

AP1 on the other hand, crashes into concrete median during a traffic merge:

My car hit a barrier while I was on autopilot.. • r/teslamotors



3) Absolutely no truck lust so far. AP2 has no affinity toward a truck when passing it.

In contrast, there have been many reports of AP1's tendency to drift toward big trucks

4) Superior lane keeping even in construction zones with confusing lane markings.

AP1 drifted and hit traffic ones in the clip below when it detected missing lane markings (yellow and white markings are covered up by newly constructed white concrete)

In my opinion, AP1 is superior in its smoothness.

AP1 may be so smooth which could lead to fatal Florida accident and fatal China street sweeper collision.

In summary, I prefer AP2 for its safety rather than AP1's smoothness and I think AP2 is heading toward the right direction.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I have no AP1 experience but I am very impressed with AP2 so far for the past 3,000 miles (mostly freeways).

1) Avoiding rear ending with a car in front most of the times. I had to brake on my own may be twice when I thought the system wouldn't brake timely.

By contrast, AP1 had quite a few of reports:

40 mph rear ended accident at Lebec, CA

Another driver says Tesla’s autopilot failed to brake; Tesla says otherwise


Rear ended a van in Switzerland

China First Autopilot Crash: rear ended a disabled car:
'Self-driving' in spotlight again as China sees first Tesla autopilot crash



Fatal China crash into street sweeper:

2) Excellent merging. I purposefully moved to right or left side when I see a merge and it has been flawless.

AP1 on the other hand, crashes into concrete median during a traffic merge:

My car hit a barrier while I was on autopilot.. • r/teslamotors



3) Absolutely no truck lust so far. AP2 has no affinity toward a truck when passing it.

In contrast, there have been many reports of AP1's tendency to drift toward big trucks

4) Superior lane keeping even in construction zones with confusing lane markings.

AP1 drifted and hit traffic ones in the clip below when it detected missing lane markings (yellow and white markings are covered up by newly constructed white concrete)

In my opinion, AP1 is superior in its smoothness.

AP1 may be so smooth which could lead to fatal Florida accident and fatal China street sweeper collision.

In summary, I prefer AP2 for its safety rather than AP1's smoothness and I think AP2 is heading toward the right direction.

For part 1, for an apples to apples comparison, you would need to have a partial lane intrusion (and perhaps with a commercial vehicle like a van or truck). That was always an issue that AP1 struggled with (cars not fully in the lane). Also, some of the AP1 issues may have been fixed by updates (for example the truck lust).

 

[OilSucks]

I have no AP1 experience but I am very impressed with AP2 so far for the past 3,000 miles (mostly freeways).

1) Avoiding rear ending with a car in front most of the times. I had to brake on my own may be twice when I thought the system wouldn't brake timely.

By contrast, AP1 had quite a few of reports:

40 mph rear ended accident at Lebec, CA

Another driver says Tesla’s autopilot failed to brake; Tesla says otherwise


Rear ended a van in Switzerland

China First Autopilot Crash: rear ended a disabled car:
'Self-driving' in spotlight again as China sees first Tesla autopilot crash



Fatal China crash into street sweeper:

2) Excellent merging. I purposefully moved to right or left side when I see a merge and it has been flawless.

AP1 on the other hand, crashes into concrete median during a traffic merge:

My car hit a barrier while I was on autopilot.. • r/teslamotors



3) Absolutely no truck lust so far. AP2 has no affinity toward a truck when passing it.

In contrast, there have been many reports of AP1's tendency to drift toward big trucks

4) Superior lane keeping even in construction zones with confusing lane markings.

AP1 drifted and hit traffic ones in the clip below when it detected missing lane markings (yellow and white markings are covered up by newly constructed white concrete)

In my opinion, AP1 is superior in its smoothness.

AP1 may be so smooth which could lead to fatal Florida accident and fatal China street sweeper collision.

In summary, I prefer AP2 for its safety rather than AP1's smoothness and I think AP2 is heading toward the right direction.

Excellent write up. Although I should probably shut up as I have never experienced AP1. I just know the limitations and best use cases for AP2 and I have not once found myself with any issues that make me question the system.

 

[Tam]

...partial lane intrusion...

My guess is: AP2 is much more cautious in response to AP1's problem of hitting partial lane intrusion obstacles, and the current algorithm is: Only one car can fit one lane at a time with exceptions such as a parked car.

My experience with AP2, on local streets, when I am on the right hand lane is: The system slows down when it sees there's another car in the same lane even though that car is a parked car.

It is an annoying for some people but at this beta stage, it is good to know that the system is making an effort to figure out whether it is safe to pass a car in the same lane rather than AP1's smoothness and ignoring the potential danger.

 

[OilSucks]

My guess is: AP2 is much more cautious in response to AP1's problem of hitting partial lane intrusion obstacles, and the current algorithm is: Only one car can fit one lane at a time with exceptions such as a parked car.

My experience with AP2, on local streets, when I am on the right hand lane is: The system slows down when it sees there's another car in the same lane even though that car is a parked car.

It is an annoying for some people but at this beta stage, it is good to know that the system is making an effort to figure out whether it is safe to pass a car in the same lane rather than AP1's smoothness and ignoring the potential danger.

I noticed the same thing and it makes a ton of sense because Tesla has said not to use AP2 on city streets and non highway roads.

 

[alcibiades]

I noticed the same thing and it makes a ton of sense because Tesla has said not to use AP2 on city streets and non highway roads.

I think you meant AP1. AP2 explicitly HAS local road AS.

 

[Tam]

I think you meant AP1. AP2 explicitly HAS local road AS.

Autopilot policy for freeway driving might be a little confusing for me.

Its website never claims that it would work on local streets but AP1 owners were able to use it on local streets.

Tesla then imposed restrictions on local streets for AP1

Tesla Restricts Autopilot on Residential Streets

That's understandable because AP1 hardware was never meant to progress to Self-Driving.

AP2 hardware on the other hand is meant to progress to Self-Driving at some point so it's a matter of time that the hardware can be activated to work in all road conditions,freeways and local streets.

My guess for those only pay for AP2 only (not Self-Driving): AP2 for local streets is a bonus because the website only claims for the handsfree function to work from on-ramp to off-ramp and it does not mention about local streets.

 

[jddssc121]

AP2 for local streets is a bonus because the website only claims for the handsfree function to work from on-ramp to off-ramp and it does not mention about local streets.

Not really... the "match speed" and "keep lane" claim does not say only on the freeway

 

[alcibiades]

AP2 for local streets is a bonus because the website only claims for the handsfree function to work from on-ramp to off-ramp and it does not mention about local streets.

Sigh.

AP2 was turned on for local roads in an update. It's in release notes. We've been over this. Please stop spreading disinformation.