Aptera

[Baluchi]

I hope the Aptera excels in range, because as a space-efficient package of carrying just two passengers it fails.
Aptera width 88 inches.

View attachment 884806

The width is my biggest concern with Aptera, though it's not a major concern for me since I live in the US Midwest.

I equate the Aptera to a glider, which which is far wider than most general aviation aircraft and only carries one or two people. At the same time, a glider can fly for hours far more efficiently than a little Cessna 172. So efficiency per passenger per mile doesn't always correlate to size.

 

[ecarfan]

Aptera debuts Launch Edition solar EV

This video is a bit tedious to watch but does contain some interesting information.

 

[ecarfan]

It’s always great to see a company like Aptera trying to radically innovate in an existing market. A CD of 0.13! The range of 400 miles with a 43kWh battery is impressive.

I think there is a market for a vehicle like this. Despite having only two seats and somewhat limited storage in the trunk, it’s not just a “commuter” EV. With that much range you can do road trips even though it does not have DC charging. Aptera claims it can charge at 13mph on 120V or 57mph on 220V which is very good from a 6.6kW onboard charger.

I am skeptical of the utility of the solar cells on the roof and hood. Aptera claims “up to” 40 miles of additional range from solar charging, but I assume that is if you leave the vehicle outside all day, unshaded, in the summer. On a cloudy day or during the winter I expect the added range would be much less. Is that worth the added cost of production?

I would have a concern about repair costs after a minor accident. I have a bigger concern about safety in an accident with a much larger and heavier vehicle, and want to see the crash test results.

I wonder about the added difficulty of changing the tires. Tire shops are not going to be thrilled.

I like the driver-centered display showing both side camera images (is that all it can show?) which of course aren’t legally allowed to replace conventional side mirrors, which the vehicle has. Obviously Aptera would love to get rid of those to improve the CD even further. A rear view camera display is standard and allowed under US DOT.

I wish this company all the best and hope they succeed! But they have huge challenges ahead of them.

 

[Mengy]

I'm sorry, but I think the complete lack of DC fast charging is a huge negative for Aptera's market. Lots of people wanted this car for road tripping, how do you road trip without DC fast charging? Yes the car is super efficient, but when doing 800+ miles per day on highways you need to charge along the way. Trickle charging a battery as small as the Aptera's will still take quite some time.

Seems like a massive downside to me, and my hunch is it will hurt their sales terribly.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

No DCFC is a demand killer. It means what should be a great road tripper is now just an in-range vehicle and, it becomes worse even to push limits of range.

Crazy thing is that it shouldn't even need a lot of DC power to make it functional because of the efficiency.

Clearly a technical problem they're still working on, but don't want to hold up the release.

 

[swaltner]

I'm sorry, but I think the complete lack of DC fast charging is a huge negative for Aptera's market. Lots of people wanted this car for road tripping, how do you road trip without DC fast charging? Yes the car is super efficient, but when doing 800+ miles per day on highways you need to charge along the way. Trickle charging a battery as small as the Aptera's will still take quite some time.

Seems like a massive downside to me, and my hunch is it will hurt their sales terribly.

Agreed on the lack of DC fast charging being a potential issue.

I have a 750 mile trip that I frequently take. This is a relatively easy day trip in the Model 3 with about 1 hour of stops at Superchargers along the way to complete the trip with a total travel time of something like 13.5 hours compared to 12.5 hours in the gasoline vehicle. Even with the relatively fast AC charging rate of 50+ mph, that's almost 7 hours of charging time required, making it a 2-day trip instead of a 1-day trip.

Even shorter trips in the 550 mile range would likely need 3 hours of charging.

It still would be viable for a 500 mile single day trip for Thanksgiving to eat with family. You could drive 250 miles in the morning, put it on the charger while you had a leisurely meal with family for the day and then drove the same 250 miles back home in the evening. If you weren't already planning on a multi-hour stop for meals, I don't see how charging during the day would work.

I'll need to give some more thought on if I want to put the deposit down on a 400-mile mode once they start shipping product...

Edit:

Clearly a technical problem they're still working on, but don't want to hold up the release.

Yeah, I do wonder if this is just a "version 1" issue and instead of keeping on bleeding cash they want to get the product on the market now, getting some cash flow into the company and then address the DCFC capability on a later update.

 

[ecarfan]

I'm sorry, but I think the complete lack of DC fast charging is a huge negative for Aptera's market. Lots of people wanted this car for road tripping, how do you road trip without DC fast charging? Yes the car is super efficient, but when doing 800+ miles per day on highways you need to charge along the way. Trickle charging a battery as small as the Aptera's will still take quite some time.

I can certainly appreciate that for those who want to do more than 400 miles a day the Aptera is not the right EV choice. That said, I think that represents a relatively small part of the EV market, in fact of the entire automobile market. We’ve all seen data on “average trip length” and the distance is far far less than 400 miles; in fact it is less than 50 miles.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Maps and Data - Average Vehicle Trip Length by Purpose (2017)
Daily miles of travel per driver in the United States 2017 | Statista
U.S. average person trip length 2017 | Statista

Of course that is only the average. Almost everyone at least occasionally wants to drive greater distances. With the Aptera, assuming some range gain during the day from the solar cells and a lunch stop with charging for about an hour, you might be able to eke out 500 miles of travel (Less of course if it is very cold, rainy, there is a headwind, big elevation gain, etc.).

But for many people 400 miles of range is more than enough. There is a market for an EV with that range that does not provide DC charging. I think that the bigger obstacle to the market accepting the Aptera is the unconventional design of the vehicle.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I can certainly appreciate that for those who want to do more than 400 miles a day the Aptera is not the right EV choice. That said, I think that represents a relatively small part of the EV market, in fact of the entire automobile market. We’ve all seen data on “average trip length” and the distance is far far less than 400 miles; in fact it is less than 50 miles.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Maps and Data - Average Vehicle Trip Length by Purpose (2017)
Daily miles of travel per driver in the United States 2017 | Statista
U.S. average person trip length 2017 | Statista

Of course that is only the average. Almost everyone at least occasionally wants to drive greater distances. With the Aptera, assuming some range gain during the day from the solar cells and a lunch stop with charging for about an hour, you might be able to eke out 500 miles of travel (Less of course if it is very cold, rainy, there is a headwind, big elevation gain, etc.).

But for many people 400 miles of range is more than enough. There is a market for an EV with that range that does not provide DC charging. I think that the bigger obstacle to the market accepting the Aptera is the unconventional design of the vehicle.

The fact that it's a 2-seater without obvious easy ingress is a limit.
Also questions over snow handling. I'd be interested to see efficiency impact of removing the wheel covers.

Plus how do you lift it for repair? Do you?

400 miles range certainly makes it a better car without DC but it would end up being parked on those longer trips when that efficiency is begging for use, especially as an EV.

Last year we went in our Kona to PEI (410/420 miles each way), driving on the island as well, and were restricted to max 50kW (125A) DCFC, plus destination charging. Now, in that trip the 2 seats would have been a problem because we had traveled separately with friends and used our car a lot, but still. Efficiency is a convenience multiplier when you're power-restricted. Maybe we could have rented around the problem.

It's also sad for visibility. If people could road trip an Aptera, you can bet that there would be a mass of good promotion.

But, problem 1 is getting it to market and on sale. It's a tough time to be an EV startup.

 

[Baluchi]

I've had a reservation from the beginning. I've been a big cheerleader for Aptera. But if they don't make it clear that DCFC is a priority very soon, they are doomed.

 

[voyager]

View attachment 734131

Is it me, or is it wider than a Model S?

It is. Curious whether the wide stance will be a complicating factor...

 

[EldestOyster]

It is. Curious whether the wide stance will be a complicating factor...

It will be, if it won't fit in my garage. Reality is that it won't be available in time to replace my poor Leaf, so only a factor. But how awesome would it be if the wheels could be pulled inward during parking?

 

[Takumi]

...and Aptera's back!

 

[MP3Mike]

I'm sorry, but I think the complete lack of DC fast charging is a huge negative for Aptera's market. Lots of people wanted this car for road tripping, how do you road trip without DC fast charging?

Well they have already changed their mind. Every Aptera will come with DC fast charging capabilities. (Likely somewhere between 40 and 60kW.)

 

[ChadS]

I really like what they are trying to do...and I certainly agree that with that type of efficiency, it has some obvious appeal for road trips.

However, I am concerned about ride quality - will you really WANT to take a long road trip in it? Remember that it's a 3-wheeler. So even if the front wheel spacing isn't too ginormous and fits in to the regular tire grooves on the highway, the rear tire will not.

I am not very picky about ride quality, but I once had a Honda Insight. It was a 4-wheeler, but a small one and the rear track was smaller than the front track. It was fine around town, but it was rough and darty on the freeway. I think most people will object if it rides like that.

I hope it will not. Maybe that Insight's problem was only because the rear track was close but not quite wide enough. Maybe a single wheel in the middle will work better. I look forward to seeing some ride reviews on the final hardware.

 

[jsmay311]

It’s a relief that they heard the overwhelmingly negative feedback and changed their mind on this so quickly.

Seems like the earlier statements about battery cooling being the limiting factor preventing DCFC were misdirection, especially considering that Steve only referred to busbar and cable sizing in this latest update, which is not a difficult problem to solve.

Now if only they could do something about the woeful lack of steering wheel and stalk controls.

 

[Watts_Up]

Well they have already changed their mind. Every Aptera will come with DC fast charging capabilities. (Likely somewhere between 40 and 60kW.)

Does anyone know or could estimate from the various ranges (250, 400, 600, 1,00 miles) what will be the different sizes of the battery?

 

[MP3Mike]

Does anyone know or could estimate from the various ranges (250, 400, 600, 1,00 miles) what will be the different sizes of the battery?

They say a minimum of 400MPH and they also said a minimum of 40kW, so you sound be able to estimate battery size...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1617653087199690752

 

[Mengy]

Well they have already changed their mind. Every Aptera will come with DC fast charging capabilities. (Likely somewhere between 40 and 60kW.)

That's a very good decision on their part, BUT the 40kW max charging rate is slow. Assuming that is not a constant curve, meaning it trends downward towards the top of the 43kWh pack, you'd be looking at over an hour to charge from down around zero up to 90% most likely.

Not ideal, but it's better than no DCFC at all. And if they can increase it more towards the 60kW charge rate that would help a lot.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

That's a very good decision on their part, BUT the 40kW max charging rate is slow. Assuming that is not a constant curve, meaning it trends downward towards the top of the 43kWh pack, you'd be looking at over an hour to charge from down around zero up to 90% most likely.

Not ideal, but it's better than no DCFC at all. And if they can increase it more towards the 60kW charge rate that would help a lot.

Although 40kw sounds "low", an hour to recover over 300 miles of range pretty much beats every EV out there!

 

[Mengy]

Although 40kw sounds "low", an hour to recover over 300 miles of range pretty much beats every EV out there!

Yeah it could be better, but it ain't bad. At least this allows the Aptera to road trip, and quite nicely too.

I'm looking forward to pulling my Model Y into Superchargers next to Apteras to charge in the near future!