Autopilot: Crashed at 40mph

[Az_Rael]

Everyone's systems right now have limitations based on speed, weather conditions, etc. Acura's system, for example, only works up to 62mph, but does provide dynamic braking support and will bring the vehicle to a stop.

I think others are quite a bit ahead of Tesla in this game right now. I assume Tesla will catch up rapidly, especially if the NHTSA implements the new 5-star ratings that include these systems. They won't be able to have just half of a collision avoidance system (since they don't provide the dynamic braking support now) and still maintain their top ratings.

 

[SDRick]

My guess is AEB is still in its infancy stage and may not be perfected yet.

For a few years now, Volvo and Mercedes have had AEB that is specifically designed to prevent frontal collisions first and if that fails the system would make sure to reduce the force of collision.

Others also have been introducing them but with limitations such as only in low city speed, not highway speed.

Thank you for the video. I am surprised that Tesla is not on the bleeding edge of AP.

 

[Tam]

...I am surprised that Tesla is not on the bleeding edge of AP...

A testimony from an owner of 2014 Dodge Durango on how they were saved by its AEB for self braking on highway and avoided a collision with concrete abutment.

Consumer Reports shows automatic braking keeps people safe

But notice on Consumer Reports survey: "36 percent said such a system kept them from having an accident" which is far far below 100%.

Tesla will get better and eventually it will be capable of being driverless, but thanks to reports from current owners who got into trouble, we are not there yet!

 

[BertL]

FWIW, my 2014 MBZ SLK (special-ordered and delivered in 2013) with the optional Driver Assist Pkg (Distronic Plus with Pre-Safe Brake, Lane Keeping Assist, etc) did a great job protecting me within the first week of ownership. I had not enabled the equivalent of TACC which it had, and was simply stopped at a major intersection with a car in front. Light turns green, car in front of me moves forward; We all accelerate to near the other edge of the intersection, when a ~€£^43$ comes zooming around the corner from my right and does a right turn against his/her red without stopping. Driver in front of me slams on the brakes, and before I knew it, my MBZ had buzzers I'd never heard before, lights going off, and my brake pedal moved downward on its own under my foot, coming to a 100% stop -- ahead of what I likely could have done by myself. As long as I live, I will believe MBZ Pre-safe Brake saved me in 2013 on a surface street from what would have been a major T-bone in my brand new toy.

I also special-ordered my former 2013 Lexus RX450h (delivered in 2012) with Pre-Collison Assist which was much more how my Autopilot-enabled MS presently operates today in that regard. While Lexus has enhanced capability significantly since then, it did not then fully operate like my MBZ did. E.g. if I was on the freeway and the RX decided it needed to emergency stop, it would only do so reducing MPH by 25. Under no condition that I'm aware of (back then, with that early implementation) would it ever come to a full stop, and then, only do so if I was running on its similar equivalent of what TACC is to us.

My point being, different mfgrs are all over the map in terms of their AEB and other safety capabilities, and it's really, really difficult for owners to keep it all straight. I had both my MBZ and Lexus in my garage at the same time and switched between them quite often. AEB was not, and is not the same, and IMHO it's very important to try and understand the differences and capabilities one's vehicle has. I doubt a growing majority of owners though, really will take the time to both understand, and then try to remember the differences in the heat of the moment, especially for owners with multiple brand and MY vehicles in their garage. I'm not so sure I would in an emergency if I was not 100% focused at that moment. ...and yes, for all the great stuff Tesla has today, it's got some catching up to do with others -- at least from my POV having owned and experienced several vehicles with variants on the "automated safety assist" capabilities.

 

[Blastphemy]

What the manual doesn't say is when the collision avoidance turns back on. In every other car I've driven, collision avoidance is only off while the driver is pressing the brake; not after it's released.

2) Tesla Automatic Emergency Brake system AEB is turned off when the owner applied the brake in this case.

It can be turned on again automatically when a driver would turn the car off first then turn on the car again.

Once Tesla AEB is turned off such as in this case, I am not sure whether you can manually turn AEB on again by going through 17" screen.

The 17" screen menu allows you to manually click "disable" ABE but I am not sure there is a button to manually "enable" AEB after it's turned off while the car is still running on the road.

If that's actually how Tesla programmed it to work, it's completely ridiculous. Because then every time a driver would press the brake for the first time during a drive, AEB would turn off until the next drive. I highly doubt AEB is permanently disabled (let alone disabled for any significant amount of time) when the brake is pressed and ready for the next incident.

Are there competing automobiles available today that will attempt to completely stop the vehicle to avoid a head-on impact?

I've had this in my Infiniti cars since 2009, and the Intelligent Brake Assist (in both emergency and non-emergency situations) worked perfectly - completely stopping the car when necessary. If the driver pressed the brake, it would allow the driver to take over; but the moment the brake was released, IBA was re-engaged.

 

[Tam]

I just stumbled on another similar thread, so this thread is old news: This 40 MPH collision should not be a surprise:

WARNING: I rear-ended someone today while using Auto Pilot in my brand new P90D!

On 1/16/2016, on I-90 Freeway, the driver applied the brake when the Model S appeared not to intervene timely as it did in the past, and resulted in 10 MPH rear-ended collision with the stopped car in front.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I just stumbled on another similar thread, so this thread is old news: This 40 MPH collision should not be a surprise:

WARNING: I rear-ended someone today while using Auto Pilot in my brand new P90D!

On 1/16/2016, on I-90 Freeway, the driver applied the brake when the Model S appeared not to intervene timely as it did in the past, and resulted in 10 MPH rear-ended collision with the stopped car in front.

Not the same situation. That one had a car pull away from the lane, unveiling a stopped vehicle. This is a situation that ACC systems typically don't stop for.

 

[thegruf]

Tesla stated AP was not engaged.
I believe Tesla on this, but not dismissing that the driver thought he was on AP.

The thread title should be changed to avoid spreading unecessary and inaccurate FUD

 

[Tam]

Not the same situation. That one had a car pull away from the lane, unveiling a stopped vehicle. This is a situation that ACC systems typically don't stop for.

Thanks for pointing that out. I guess that's another limitation that I need to learn.

 

[Tam]

...Tesla stated AP was not engaged...

Thanks for the suggestion. That is fine to me. Please do change it to something like:

"Autopilot not engaged in 40 MPH crash"

I have no problem with changing the title but the purpose of Autopilot is to prevent accident.

Tesla did not say that the driver never did use Autopilot in this incidence.

The article said "Data points to Simpson hitting the brake pedal and deactivating autopilot and traffic aware cruise control, returning the car to manual control instantly."

So the driver did use the Autopilot but then the driver also hit the brake. And according to the article, hitting the brake means "instantly" returns the car to "manual control."

That is fine to blame the driver's action due to the nature of beta but in my opinion, current Autopilot needs to be redesigned to accommodate human errors.

At least, as suggested by Az_Rael, it should have dynamic braking to apply more force when a driver does not apply the brake fast enough or hard enough.

A simple answer that "Autopilot" was off because the brake was applied is a good legal answer for this beta trial.

However, a desirable answer should be:

Whether the brake was applied or not, a good Automatic Emergency Brake design should not be disengaged by the act of manually applying the brake and it should automatically brake itself and halt the car to a stop.

So was the Autopilot at fault?

Legally, no. The system acted as it was designed.

So is the current design of Autopilot that turns off the system when you brake in a panic a good design for an accident avoidance system?

The goal of Autopilot is to prevent accidents.

And if reports of crashes keeps coming in, then it does not matter what the title says, the design needs to be improved.

 

[bhzmark]

Since AP was disengaged, AEB should have stopped or much more significantly reduced the speed of the car. Other cars AEB works better. Tesla needs to fix that.

 

[Blastphemy]

Since AP was disengaged, AEB should have stopped or much more significantly reduced the speed of the car. Other cars AEB works better. Tesla needs to fix that.

Exactly. And if AutoPilot (AutoSteer/Traffic-Aware Cruise Control, whatever) was disengaged by the brake, the driver should have noticed deceleration as the regen kicked in instantly, even if regen was set to the lower setting. AEB should have applied some braking, despite Tesla's claim that it was "turned off" when the driver pressed the brake... because then AEB would never be on for any driver who ever touched his/her brake! That would just be stupid.

 

[Az_Rael]

Exactly. And if AutoPilot (AutoSteer/Traffic-Aware Cruise Control, whatever) was disengaged by the brake, the driver should have noticed deceleration as the regen kicked in instantly, even if regen was set to the lower setting. AEB should have applied some braking, despite Tesla's claim that it was "turned off" when the driver pressed the brake... because then AEB would never be on for any driver who ever touched his/her brake! That would just be stupid.

I think AEB was disengaged by the brake tap. I have a feeling the system is event based, so as long as the original object that was sensed is still being sensed, the AEB will be disengaged by driver actions.

Simpson's use of the brake also apparently disengaged the automatic emergency braking system, something that's been standard across Tesla's range since it rolled out firmware version 6.2 last year.

I suspect the regen kicking in might have lured her into a false sense that the car was decelerating for the object on its own. Then when it becomes clear that is not happening, it's too late.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The manual actually says you have to tap and release the brake to disengage AEB. So if you press the brake but don't release, would it still remain engaged? This is hard to test safely, but it would be interesting (probably would need something you can safely crash into without affecting the car but would be detected by the AEBS as needing to brake).

However, the point is kind of moot anyways since Tesla's AEB doesn't brake to a stop.

 

[animorph]

Not an owner yet, but there is another thread about how regen doesn't kick in immediately when AP is disengaged. That might lead to the sensation that AP is still active.

 

[mdevp]

I think AEB was disengaged by the brake tap. I have a feeling the system is event based, so as long as the original object that was sensed is still being sensed, the AEB will be disengaged by driver actions.

Simpson's use of the brake also apparently disengaged the automatic emergency braking system, something that's been standard across Tesla's range since it rolled out firmware version 6.2 last year.

I suspect the regen kicking in might have lured her into a false sense that the car was decelerating for the object on its own. Then when it becomes clear that is not happening, it's too late.

I agree but we need to know the time when the brake was tapped. I don't know why Tesla doesn't release this. It will show whether Ms. Simpson's recollection is actually true or not.

 

[brianman]

This was caused by the #1 problem of autopilot. Not knowing whether or not it is engaged. Twice now I've been cruising on the freeway thinking AP was on when it wasn't. There are many events which cause AP to turn off once you turn it on.

The only indication Tesla gives you that AP has turned off is a relatively quiet chime (and a very small icon that turns from blue to grey). This isn't enough of a warning that AP is no longer active. Tesla needs to address this now.

Use the easter egg. It's terribly obvious that the feature is on when you use it. I use it exclusively now when using Autosteer.

 

[Tam]

The manual actually says you have to tap and release the brake to disengage AEB.

I look up the older V6.2 note and it said you can cancel AEB by just "press the brake pedal."

Newer V7.0 note says "press and release the brake pedal." as mentioned in previous posting.

Looks like Tesla is evolving and had improved the AEB.

 

[Blastphemy]

I look up the older V6.2 note and it said you can cancel AEB by just "press the brake pedal." Newer V7.0 note says "press and release the brake pedal." as mentioned in previous posting.

Which still doesn't tell us when AEB turns back on. If it's like every other car on the road with collision avoidance, it should re-engage quickly so it's ready for the next potential incident. We can all guess 'til we're blue in the face, but there's no answer to that question at this time.

Not an owner yet, but there is another thread about how regen doesn't kick in immediately when AP is disengaged. That might lead to the sensation that AP is still active.

If you were an owner, you'd know the regen kicks in pretty quickly after disengaging AutoPilot. I can't find that thread you reference and didn't link to, but even if I could, I know how my Model X drives and it definitely starts to slow immediately when Auto Steer and/or Traffic-Aware Cruise Control are turned off (either by brake or stalk press).

 

[Ivo-G]

The goal of Autopilot is to prevent accidents.

And if reports of crashes keeps coming in, then it does not matter what the title says, the design needs to be improved.

I'm sure my comment will not be a popular one, and will get its share of dislikes. But your statement in simply not correct. The goal of autopilot is not to prevent accidents. It's a luxury feature on a great car, and one of the main selling points. It's even sold as such: a comfort feature. So while some of the things it does do mitigate possible accidents, that is not its GOAL.

More people would report their mishaps if they weren't subsequently dissed by a horde of other owners who haven't been in the situations described here or in that report, or if Tesla would be more forthcoming with information and education on these issues.

The thread WARNING: I rear-ended someone today while using Auto Pilot in my brand new P90D! referenced above caught my eye back then, when I was still awaiting delivery of my car. I heeded the poster's warning and prepared for the sort of situation he encountered. Mentally that is. Yet when I was faced with a similar sort of situation, I was completely surprised and found myself unable to cope with it in a timely fashion. If however I had gotten the advise to lower my TACC speed if in heavy traffic from whatever higher setting it had been previous to the slow down starting, I wouldn't have been caught off-guard by the TACC accelerating to said higher preset speed only to realize too late that there was in fact a slower moving (nearly stationary) vehicle up ahead.

Tesla has since given me a few answers to what really happened but not nearly all, stating that only a court order could force them to do so, and that they do this to protect their customers from casual inquiries by e.g. law enforcement. And even when the data is finally released it's the owner's words against theirs, as they're the only one who can see the untampered logs. There's no log signing or forensic logging feature using a public key generated by the owner to ensure that the log isn't tampered with, nor can the owner himself see the data in any way. Unless you have another monitoring system logging events in your car, their word is leading and final.

I just hope that Tesla and this community will start to warn others more about certain specific scenarios where the systems may not perform as expected, and to educate owners better on how the systems actually do work (in as much detail as they would like). Else I fear many more accidents (and possibly lawsuits) will happen before we get to Elon's autopilot vision of the future that I'm so eager to see myself.

Last but not least: I love my Model S, and Tesla. I can only think of one other car and brand I love as much. So to even have to write this cost me a lot of courage and will. But it has to be said, despite the love, so others may learn and benefit. Unless they stick their heads in the sand and pretend there's nothing going on.