Autopilot: Crashed at 40mph

[pchilds]

I got my model S in January 2016, At that time AP would randomly steer out of the lane and it would never stop, coming up on a stopped car. Today it stays in the lane 100% and stops for the stopped car 50-75% of the time. You have to pay attention, if you don't, don't blame Tesla.

Remember this, Airliner crew flies 150 miles past airport - CNN.com, they didn't blame Airbus.

 

[Ivo-G]

The productive way in these cases is to learn how accidents happen and learn to operate within its current limitations until an improvement can be made.

To learn AND to educate!

 

[Ivo-G]

Remember this, Airliner crew flies 150 miles past airport - CNN.com, they didn't blame Airbus.

Yet when things like this happen, Airbus doesn't just say "it's beta" or "the systems worked as intended". Instead they send out advisories to all their customers to beware of the situations that could lead to missing an airport by 150 miles.

 

[Electricfan]

It seems very simple on the surface - the car can drive itself on the freeway in traffic.

But it can't, not reliably. I've sent two dashcam videos to Tesla showing my car "on the freeway in traffic" trying to change lanes on top of a vehicle that was already there. Both times it was a pickup truck, so maybe my car doesn't like them. (I posted both of these on this forum as well)

Tesla only responded to one of the two cases. They called me with the results - did not put it in an email. Probably a legal thing. But they said the car made the mistake because it lost track of the lane (it had something to do with the road going up over a very very slight hill) and then it latched on to a car in front of me as its "leader" and as a result tried to get behind that car, which was in the lane to my left. When my car tried to move left I had to grab the wheel or I would have collided with the truck that was overtaking me on my left. When I asked why my car didn't see the truck, he said the truck was moving too fast. That, however, was baloney. The truck was going maybe 5 mph faster than me - it was not speeding or doing anything dangerous.

Put simply, AP is not ready for prime time, but Tesla has seen fit to put it out in public.

Let me ask all the Tesla believers a question. You "accept" that the product is "Beta" before you engage it - Tesla makes sure of that and will be using it in court one day. What about all the other drivers on the road who are also at risk? They didn't agree to anything, but one of them may die as a result of Tesla's decision. Is that OK?

 

[pchilds]

Put simply, AP is not ready for prime time, but Tesla has seen fit to put it out in public.

Let me ask all the Tesla believers a question. You "accept" that the product is "Beta" before you engage it - Tesla makes sure of that and will be using it in court one day. What about all the other drivers on the road who are also at risk? They didn't agree to anything, but one of them may die as a result of Tesla's decision. Is that OK?

Yes it is! Every time you ride or drive in a car there is risk. The risk with Autopilot is less than without.

30k people die in car accidents every year, the accidents that are most likely to cause death are high speed head on and rollover accidents.

None of the Autopilot screw ups, would have caused those types of accident. If Autopilot steers the next lane a hits a car, traveling at almost the same speed as you, you are looking a minor fender bender, nobody is going to be seriously hurt or die.

 

[Cosmacelf]

What I don't get is how is it any worse than ACC or other ACC/autosteer systems? The burden on the brain is even less than in ACC (now you don't even have to do steering adjustments). Why is it suddenly because it is "AP" some people's brains turn into mush (according to arguments here)?

The fact of the matter is that the system requires your attention, just like other ACC/autosteer, ACC only, or cruise control systems. What is that so hard to accept? If you treat it the same way as cruise control, I don't see how it is such a big deal, but rather drastically reduces fatigue.

I stated why the Tesla system is more dangerous, but I guess you didn't get it. The Tesla system is more dangerous because it is more capable. As I said, it is literally completely driving the friggin car, and doing it well, for long periods of time. NO OTHER shipping system can do this. So Tesla is unique in the universe right now.

Ok, so it's great, right? Yep, right up until the point that it isn't. It gives you a FALSE sense of security that it can actually drive the car, but there are many situations it can't handle.

So the problem, as I said before, is that the system is good enough to lull you into complacency, but not good enough to warrant that complacency.

So yeah, if you have an iron clad attention span that concentrates on the road ALL the time even when the car is doing a great job driving, then congrats, you are a good robot. The rest of us shmucks just have to hope the car doesn't crap out when we take a peek at that text that just popped into our phone while AP is on.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I stated why the Tesla system is more dangerous, but I guess you didn't get it. The Tesla system is more dangerous because it is more capable. As I said, it is literally completely driving the friggin car, and doing it well, for long periods of time. NO OTHER shipping system can do this. So Tesla is unique in the universe right now.

Sorry, I just don't get this premise. The system is just an ACC system with auto steering at this point. The only advantage it has over other auto steer systems is it doesn't have a nag timer and it is smoother. However, it is quite far from completely driving the car: it doesn't know to change lanes to reach its destination, it doesn't react to traffic controls (traffic lights / stop signs), it can't make sharp turns, etc.

Ok, so it's great, right? Yep, right up until the point that it isn't. It gives you a FALSE sense of security that it can actually drive the car, but there are many situations it can't handle.

So the problem, as I said before, is that the system is good enough to lull you into complacency, but not good enough to warrant that complacency.

So yeah, if you have an iron clad attention span that concentrates on the road ALL the time even when the car is doing a great job driving, then congrats, you are a good robot. The rest of us shmucks just have to hope the car doesn't crap out when we take a peek at that text that just popped into our phone while AP is on.

You don't need an iron clad attention span. It's the same as using cruise control. Treat it the same and I don't see the issue (and it seems a vast majority of people using AP are able to do so). There was another thread about how a lawyer tried to test the law by texting with AP active and he got the ticket regardless.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Sorry, I just don't get this premise. The system is just an ACC system with auto steering at this point. The only advantage it has over other auto steer systems is it doesn't have a nag timer and it is smoother. However, it is quite far from completely driving the car: it doesn't know to change lanes to reach its destination, it doesn't react to traffic controls (traffic lights / stop signs), it can't make sharp turns, etc.


You don't need an iron clad attention span. It's the same as using cruise control. Treat it the same and I don't see the issue (and it seems a vast majority of people using AP are able to do so). There was another thread about how a lawyer tried to test the law by texting with AP active and he got the ticket regardless.

Tesla AP works quite well on the freeway. Have you used it? If not, please stop telling me I'm wrong without any experience to back up your statements.

 

[Spidy]

Sorry, I just don't get this premise. The system is just an ACC system with auto steering at this point. The only advantage it has over other auto steer systems is it doesn't have a nag timer and it is smoother. However, it is quite far from completely driving the car: it doesn't know to change lanes to reach its destination, it doesn't react to traffic controls (traffic lights / stop signs), it can't make sharp turns, etc.


You don't need an iron clad attention span. It's the same as using cruise control. Treat it the same and I don't see the issue (and it seems a vast majority of people using AP are able to do so). There was another thread about how a lawyer tried to test the law by texting with AP active and he got the ticket regardless.

Humans are never going to treat a system the same that does something differently. Autopilot takes over more control and requires less attention, this will have an effect on humans and change how they interact with the system.

It's like telling parents to pay as much attention to their 10 year old kid as to their 1 year old. It's just not going to happen, because the parents brain is already set on 1 year old = trying to kill himself 24/7, 10 year old = knows he should not walk into the street.

 

[McMuggets]

I stated why the Tesla system is more dangerous, but I guess you didn't get it. The Tesla system is more dangerous because it is more capable. As I said, it is literally completely driving the friggin car, and doing it well, for long periods of time. NO OTHER shipping system can do this. So Tesla is unique in the universe right now.

Ok, so it's great, right? Yep, right up until the point that it isn't. It gives you a FALSE sense of security that it can actually drive the car, but there are many situations it can't handle.

So the problem, as I said before, is that the system is good enough to lull you into complacency, but not good enough to warrant that complacency.

So yeah, if you have an iron clad attention span that concentrates on the road ALL the time even when the car is doing a great job driving, then congrats, you are a good robot. The rest of us shmucks just have to hope the car doesn't crap out when we take a peek at that text that just popped into our phone while AP is on.

This is pretty much exactly what the Google engineer tweeted about. And this scenario is more plausible than you imagine. Well said.

 

[Wouter]

I suspect that is why other automakers have decided to be much more cautious than Tesla when rolling out AP. This version requires constant vigilance, and that's too much to ask of the average driver. Note that even Mobileye's CEO characterized Tesla's AP as very aggressive.

If I understand this correctly you mean other automakers only bring this kind of features available until it can handle all situations. But how can they determine all possible situations that could occur in real life (not only test simulations)?

I don't own a tesla (yet), and don't have any experience using AP. But I wonder if other automakers have the same logging of their implementation of autosteering so the can learn from real user situations.

It's correct tesla should make it clear to their customers what the risks are using AP, but I see it more as a community helping to refine how AP handles certain situations. If you don't want to be part of this community, don't buy/enable AP.

 

[Electricfan]

If you don't want to be part of this community, don't buy/enable AP.

Just wanted to ask you, as a non-AP driver - you're 100% ok with other cars on the road using experimental features that completely control the car - accel, brake, and steering, with your life at risk if it malfunctions?

Above you say "...don't buy/enable AP", but of course YOU don't have any choice, do you? I guess you could stop driving on public roads. That seems a steep price to pay. Are you willing to go that far to further AP and Tesla's dream?

 

[Electricfan]

You don't need an iron clad attention span.

Sorry, this is not correct. See Tesla's warning below.

 

[Electricfan]

Yes it is!

Ok, I admire your honesty. Is there ANY experimental technology that Tesla or another automaker could install that you would not be 100% OK with it causing the death of a driver who was in a normal, non-experimental car? I'm just wondering how far you would tolerate an automaker going. You're the most tolerant person of risk to innocents that I've ever seen.

I never, ever thought Tesla would release AP in a state where it could cause an accident if the driver was not 100% attentive and ready to "save the day" instantaneously, making perfect split-second decisions at any moment required. I really think Tesla may go out of business from the lawsuit and related publicity if anybody in a non-Tesla auto dies due to an AP failure (or the Tesla driver's, depending on your view).

 

[Wouter]

Just wanted to ask you, as a non-AP driver - you're 100% ok with other cars on the road using experimental features that completely control the car - accel, brake, and steering, with your life at risk if it malfunctions?

Above you say "...don't buy/enable AP", but of course YOU don't have any choice, do you? I guess you could stop driving on public roads. That seems a steep price to pay. Are you willing to go that far to further AP and Tesla's dream?

Good point, other drivers don't have the choice if the tesla is using AP or not.

But honestly, I don't have any influence on the behavior of any other driver. They can also be texting, reading emails, driving while drunk, ... without any tools to assist them.


My point was that I have the impression / hope the tesla system learns faster from real user data than other cars. I'm not sure they have the same amount of logs they can go through to see if they can make the system better.

If other vendors wait until they think their implementation is 'perfect', would that mean there isn't any chance to have an accident anymore? Are they going to take all responsibility when having an incident?

 

[EinSV]

Tesla has explained that it only activates new AP features once they have data showing those features improve safety. They have also offered to share that data with the DOT.

Tesla offered to share all its Autopilot data with the US Department of Transport

Prohibiting Tesla owners from having the choice of buying an option that makes driving more relaxing, more enjoyable and safer is not the way to go in my opinion.

 

[mspohr]

Anecdotal reports from individuals (who may be looking to find a scapegoat for their poor driving) and hypothetical speculation are irrelevant. What really matters is data and Tesla has already announced that analysis of their data shows that drivers using autopilot are half as likely to have an accident than those not using autopilot. I do hope that the US DOT takes Tesla up on their offer to share their AP driving data. We would all benefit from insights into actual data rather than speculation.
I have noticed that I do drive differently with AP. It is less stressful. Instead of having to focus on keeping the car between the lines (something that Tesla's data shows that AP does a much better job of than manual driving) and focusing on the car ahead to keep proper following distance (something else the AP does much better than humans), I find I can spend more of my attention on the surrounding traffic to the sides and back looking out for other distracted, texting, erratic manual drivers.

 

[Lex]

I stated why the Tesla system is more dangerous, but I guess you didn't get it. The Tesla system is more dangerous because it is more capable

Cruise control or a brick on the gas pedal are inherently more dangerous than the current Autopilot system. Did you go all Chicken Little on Cruise Control when it was released too ? Give us human beings some credit.

And as others have already said, statistically speaking Autopilot is already safer than meatbag drivers...

 

[stopcrazypp]

Sorry, this is not correct. See Tesla's warning below.
View attachment 179538

How is this "iron clad attention span"? This is exactly the same as expectation as CC, ACC, and ACC/autosteer systems in other cars. There is no extra burden being put on the brain (rather there is less burden)

 

[Tam]

...I really think Tesla may go out of business from the lawsuit and related publicity if anybody in a non-Tesla auto dies due to an AP failure (or the Tesla driver's, depending on your view)...

So far, all reported Autopilot incidences have not resulted in injuries and in much reduced speed such as 40 MPH instead of 60 MPH...

There's a possibility of lawsuit when there is a fatality.

An owner may have a very hard time to shift the blame to Tesla. If owners are incompetent at babysitting Autopilot then it's their responsibility to not buying the option in the first place and not activating it even if it's available.

On the other hand, non-Tesla victims may blame Tesla for putting Autopilot in the hand of someone who is unfit for babysitting the system.

However, Tesla has data to show that driving with Autopilot is much safer than driving without it.

That means there is no question that statically, accidents have to happen with Autopilot in some frequency.

The question is whether society would benefit from Autopilot with less accidents and with less severity or not?

I speculate that victims will be compensated adequately but Tesla will not be held responsible.