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Autopilot: If changes require "hands on the wheel at all times" who will use, buy?
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- Autopilot Tesla Inc.
Garlan Garner
Banned
Garlan Garner
Banned
Hands on the wheel at all times would be a step backwards for Tesla. Tesla does not go backwards.
For those that don't live in the USA, you need to know here we have figured out that it is always someone else's fault.
. You can get out of taking responsibility and even make some money blaming someone else. It costs more to defend your lack of wrong doing so we just pay the accuser and walk away most of the time..
Scroll down to the first place award on the link below. You will understand why we in the USA need to ban Autopilot. Don't you dare mess with the dumb. Our lawyers will ensure they are protected.
2015 Stella Awards | Cakewalk Forums
. You can get out of taking responsibility and even make some money blaming someone else. It costs more to defend your lack of wrong doing so we just pay the accuser and walk away most of the time..Scroll down to the first place award on the link below. You will understand why we in the USA need to ban Autopilot. Don't you dare mess with the dumb.
Our lawyers will ensure they are protected. 2015 Stella Awards | Cakewalk Forums
James Anders
Member
Was it Anton Yeltsin's fault that he didn't put his car into Park properly?
Putting all the responsibility onto the driver ignores the manufacturer's responsibility to engineer a system that addresses human factors and shortcomings. Small design details can make a huge difference in outcome. A pedal position that's a few millimeters off can make a difference in unintended acceleration. Your two wire example is very simplistic. Human factor design can be very subtle.
Garlan Garner
Banned
Your insurance company puts all of the responsibility onto the owner of your car. The Police puts all of the responsibility of the Driver.
So - Its NOT simply my opinion as to who holds the responsibility.
I have always had a hard time understanding this concept. Why is it some else's responsibility to ensure you can use their product responsibly. Engineering something to make a task easier I understand, but if I engineer something to make a task harder, I am not forcing you to use my product. Don't you assume the liability when you decide to use it?
Garlan Garner
Banned
I look at AP the same way I look at cruise control. I just purchased a new KIA. It would take a KIA salesperson 3 hours to fully explain to me EVERY option on my car in such a way that I remember EVERYTHING. They never explained cruise control. I use it. If I killed someone using cruise control....would it be KIA's fault?
Garlan Garner
Banned
In the light of the new findings, Mr. Scaglione is now facing charges of reckless driving. As for his reputation, you could argue that he tried to place the blame on the Autopilot, but at the same time you can't really judge a man for what he said right after a serious crash. As the logs description below shows, he was indeed using all the Autopilot features before the incident took place, so he might have gotten confused.
“We got access to the logs. Data from the vehicle shows that Autosteer was not engaged at the time of this collision. Prior to the collision, Autosteer was in use periodically throughout the approximately 50-minute trip. The most recent such use ended when, approximately 40 seconds prior to the collision, the vehicle did not detect the driver’s hands on the wheel and began a rapidly escalating set of visual and audible alerts to ensure the driver took proper control. When the driver failed to respond to 15 seconds of visual warnings and audible tones, Autosteer began a graceful abort procedure in which the music is muted, the vehicle begins to slow and the driver is instructed both visually and audibly to place their hands on the wheel. Approximately 11 seconds prior to the collision, the driver responded and regained control by holding the steering wheel, applying leftward torque to turn it, and pressing the accelerator pedal to 42%. Over 10 seconds and approximately 300m later and while under manual steering control, the driver drifted out of the lane, collided with a barrier, overcorrected, crossed both lanes of the highway, struck a median barrier, and rolled the vehicle.”
Read more: http://www.autoevolution.com/news/the-tesla-model-x-that-rolled-over-in-pennsylvania-didn-t-have-autopilot-on-109481.html#ixzz4EnqdgMDq
Best use of autopilot, according to me is on left or middle lane on highways. Do not use it on the exiting lane (right most) and you will most probably be safe. Do not use it on local streets and for God sake, watch the road atleast ....
deonb
Active Member
James Anders
Member
What concept are you referring to? All I'm saying is that manufacturers have a responsibility to design and deliver a system or product that keeps human factors and frailties in mind. It's a complete systemic thing. When people's lives are on the line there's a lot to consider.
There are many examples of engineering systems to make them reasonably idiot proof.
There's no doubt in my mind that a certain sizable percentage of new Tesla drivers did not fully appreciate the inherent limitations of AP. And yes, I understand they clicked through the disclaimer but these types of disclaimers are so prevalent in today's society that sometimes extra effort is required.
Would anyone here have an issue with the following...
Upon, initiation of Autopilot there would be a brief informative on-screen video that explains the purpose and limitations of AP. Maybe it's only 5 minutes long, But just something to explain the nuances (and yes, it's a highly nuanced system) to the average new Tesla driver. I suspect that would have gone a long way temper expectations.
I drive my current non-Tesla with ONE hand on the wheel at 7-8 oclock. I would have no issue doing this with AP engaged. You don't need BOTH hands on the wheel for AP not to warn you. As long as the wheel senses minor resistance from your hand resting on it all is good. I'm getting an M3 with AP.
Garlan Garner
Banned
Tesla has indeed kept human factors and fragilities in mind. The whole AP thing is designed for HUMANS to have a better driving experience. Who else would AP be for.
Making sure each of the 1 million people who will buy a Tesla understands all features is just insane. There are people out there who don't yet understand cruise control. One of which is my elderly mom, who is absolutely satisfied that her sales person did fill her mind with confusion about cruise control because she will NEVER use it.
Garlan Garner
Banned
The feature is called "auto-steer". When you "activate" auto steer.....you are told that YOU maintain responsibility.
DON'T activate "auto-steer" if you don't want any responsibility. Its just that easy.
Tesla posted in another thread that they are looking at "better encouraging" adherence to their autopilot terms:
Wait, what?
So now it's "Steering Wheel Anxiety"?
Good grief.
Does anyone else notice that Tesla are working really hard to remove the stress and gas from your daily driving whilst at the same time, so many of the threads on this forum just put the stress and a whole lot of gas straight back into your mind and body?
That's a 9.0 for Irony, right there.
In relation to this thread: This is just a re-hash of the personal freedoms/civic responsibilities debate that happened with the introduction of lap/seatbelts.
So now it's "Steering Wheel Anxiety"?
Good grief.
Does anyone else notice that Tesla are working really hard to remove the stress and gas from your daily driving whilst at the same time, so many of the threads on this forum just put the stress and a whole lot of gas straight back into your mind and body?
That's a 9.0 for Irony, right there.
In relation to this thread: This is just a re-hash of the personal freedoms/civic responsibilities debate that happened with the introduction of lap/seatbelts.
I might be mistaken, but I don't believe the car really knows at ALL TIMES whether your hand is at the wheel or not. It has to sense torque which can really only happen if there was some turning involved. Now I know it doesn't require much, but it does require some.
I'm not really impacted by the whole steering wheel nag anyways. I tend to keep at least one finger on the steering wheel. I do that not because of nag, and definitely not because the system tells me to. I do that to get a feel for what it's doing, and to remain engaged.
Lots of things can occur on the road. In just a couple hundred miles I might encounter a couple occurrences of road debris, and a few pot holes here and there. If that's not bad enough there is the issue with truck lust that crops up time to time. If that isn't cold water on AP than I don't know what is.
In the end I'm not a huge stickler of the rules for the sake of the rule. Hell I think most laws anymore are really about selective enforcement.
All I really care about is being responsible for my action behind the wheel. In going from point A to the point B I only have a few objectives in mind. Things like getting their quickly; not hurting anyone, and not getting any speeding tickets.
I don't really care about laws or what the some silly disclaimer reads. I know there is some in-between the lines law. The really speed limit versus the posted one, or the real limitations of the AP versus what the lawyers say.
I know I have something that does something so I'll exploit it within its limitations.
If I had a MB I would feel the need to trick the system. Like the old coke can trick if it still works, or some other workaround. With that car the lawyers simply had more say.
I've never been much for nags. Probably has a lot to do with why I'm not married. Have you ever noticed how when person A has some freedom there is suddenly a bunch of people questioning whether it was really responsible for person A to have that freedom?
I can't speak for any other country, but I find the question of autopilot in the USA pretty laughable. There are all kinds of unsafe, but really cool things on the road in this country. We modify are cars in sorts of ways, and some parts of this country worship trucks. Take for example massively jacked up pickup trucks that are essentially monster trucks. If something has wheels you can probably drive it on the roads in the USA.
Most of the AP discussion is simply the effort of the media to make the AP into something it's not. It gets them more clicks.
I'm not really impacted by the whole steering wheel nag anyways. I tend to keep at least one finger on the steering wheel. I do that not because of nag, and definitely not because the system tells me to. I do that to get a feel for what it's doing, and to remain engaged.
Lots of things can occur on the road. In just a couple hundred miles I might encounter a couple occurrences of road debris, and a few pot holes here and there. If that's not bad enough there is the issue with truck lust that crops up time to time. If that isn't cold water on AP than I don't know what is.
In the end I'm not a huge stickler of the rules for the sake of the rule. Hell I think most laws anymore are really about selective enforcement.
All I really care about is being responsible for my action behind the wheel. In going from point A to the point B I only have a few objectives in mind. Things like getting their quickly; not hurting anyone, and not getting any speeding tickets.
I don't really care about laws or what the some silly disclaimer reads. I know there is some in-between the lines law. The really speed limit versus the posted one, or the real limitations of the AP versus what the lawyers say.
I know I have something that does something so I'll exploit it within its limitations.
If I had a MB I would feel the need to trick the system. Like the old coke can trick if it still works, or some other workaround. With that car the lawyers simply had more say.
I've never been much for nags. Probably has a lot to do with why I'm not married. Have you ever noticed how when person A has some freedom there is suddenly a bunch of people questioning whether it was really responsible for person A to have that freedom?
I can't speak for any other country, but I find the question of autopilot in the USA pretty laughable. There are all kinds of unsafe, but really cool things on the road in this country. We modify are cars in sorts of ways, and some parts of this country worship trucks. Take for example massively jacked up pickup trucks that are essentially monster trucks. If something has wheels you can probably drive it on the roads in the USA.
Most of the AP discussion is simply the effort of the media to make the AP into something it's not. It gets them more clicks.
The trick is to strike the balance between making a product somewhat idiot proof while also not getting too carried away with it, and losing what made it special in the process. Your suggestion works just find to achieve that balance. I would have it set to do that with each driver profile. Heck I would even go as far as having more nags for the first 1000 miles or so of using AP. Just to ease the driver into it a bit.
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