Autopilot: If changes require "hands on the wheel at all times" who will use, buy?

[EVie'sDad]

It already does require hands on the wheel, as displayed time and time again every single time you activate it or leave it running for a period of time. Ignoring it will result in a crash. Every driver today is using this feature, and I am certain will continue to do so in the future, hopefully in a more informed, educated and respectful manner to those around them that these isolated drivers have demonstrated.

 

[Ames]

Honestly I think AutoPilot is perfect the way it is. I say that it is far more important to be paying attention to what is going on than having your hands on the wheel. Just having your hands on the wheel would not have saved Brown. I like the way the AP asks you to occasionally check in especially when it is less confident or didn't detect your participation for some time.

Bottom line to CR et al; calling it something else wouldn't have saved Brown, keeping your hands on the wheel every 1 minute wouldn't have saved Brown, more education on AP wouldn't have saved Brown, and it can't even be said that NOT having AP would have saved him...

 

[davidc18]

I have been using autopilot since it was released. It is the reason I purchased my MS. It works. It works very well. It must be monitored (supervised) at all times to ensure it is doing what you (the driver) expect it to do.

The failings are due to the way TESLA is marketing the system. It never should have been called "autopilot" and the two technologies TACC and Assisted Lane Keeping should have been kept separate (in my opinion). I believe people can and will understand that TACC is an improved "classic" autopilot. They may understand "Assisted Lane Keeping". Many people clearly do not understand how they work together as the "autopilot" system.

That said, people also do not understand modern aircraft autopilot systems, which have two pilots (lets just talk narrow body commercial aircraft) to monitor the system.

These systems do increase safety when used properly.

Drive safe and please TESLA don't take away my fully functioning "autopilot" system.

 

[SageBrush]

Answer to OP: No

I want AP to make my driving safer by being synergistic, not autonomous.

 

[3PHASE]

This thread got me thinking, what are they teaching drivers now, and do we need to update the driver's manuals at some point? In Maryland, taking the hands off the wheel is considered Distracted Driving. What does your State Driver's Manual say?

http://www.mva.maryland.gov/_resources/docs/DL-002.pdf#page=29

 

[3PHASE]

And Tesla agrees...

Model S Autopilot Press Kit | Tesla Motors

Autosteer (Beta)

Autosteer keeps the car in the current lane and engages Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to maintain the car’s speed. Using a variety of measures including steering angle, steering rate and speed to determine the appropriate operation AutoSteer assists the driver on the road, making the driving experience easier.

Tesla requires drivers to remain engaged and aware when Autosteer is enabled. Drivers must keep their hands on the steering wheel.​

So, I suspect, if any action will come, it would be related to this. What percentage of users do you think keep their hands on the wheel at all times? I suspect it is low, especially on long/safe stretches of highway.

On a personal note, I love the feature. I will order it, and I would probably not keep my hands on the wheel at all times.

 

[svp6]

I would buy it. In fact I think Tesla should implement the mandatory hands on wheel system. If you presume youtube collects only a fraction of the crazy uses of autopilot, I don't really want to be in the lane next to someone who is trying to prove natural selection works. I use autopilot frequently and always keep at least one hand on the wheel.

 

[3PHASE]

I compare not having your hands on the wheel (but ready to react) to taking your foot off the gas or above the brake, but at the ready when using cruise control on any car that has it. You can't possible police hands off the wheel using Autopilot like using a cell phone or texting. Anyone outside the car just can't see it, especially since we've gone from 10-2 to 9-3 or as low as 7-4 positioning, because of airbag deployment.

 

[X Yes?]

It already does require hands on the wheel, as displayed time and time again every single time you activate it or leave it running for a period of time. Ignoring it will result in a crash. Every driver today is using this feature, and I am certain will continue to do so in the future, hopefully in a more informed, educated and respectful manner to those around them that these isolated drivers have demonstrated.

Doesn't the current system allow "hands off the wheel" for limited time? EG. the video of Musk's ex?

 

[wycolo]

[Distractions of any sort cause drivers to miss key visual and audio cues needed to avoid a crash.] MD/gov via mczajka

. . . but I had my tunes on, man!

. . . but I spilled my fries, man!

. . . I was eating a Milky Way!!


--

 

[sillydriver]

Doesn't the current system allow "hands off the wheel" for limited time? EG. the video of Musk's ex?

There are two meanings of "require" (or allow) in play. "Require" could mean "must do it or it won't function" or "require" could mean "must do it because we say so". AP requires hands on the wheel only in the second sense, except for needing to briefly tug the wheel every few minutes when it nags. And in the beginning it didn't even have nags. I think the disconnect between these, where the AP system they gave us works fine without hands on the wheel, frankly shows that Tesla introduced the whole "hands on the wheel" thing as a cynical ploy to try to reduce their liability exposure in case of an accident: something I cannot blame them for given our litigious society. I believe the company knows perfectly well that AP will mostly be used without hands on the wheel, and even intended AP to be used without hands on the wheel, but by saying we must have our hands on the wheel they are able to say the system was being misused by the driver if something went wrong. And I think most of us understand Tesla's motivation and thus have no fear or hesitation to use the system without our hands on the wheel, because we know that it was really designed to be used without our hands on the wheel. After all, if we all really believed the system wasn't designed that way, so it was really much less safe without our hands on the wheel, we would all be pretty stupid to use the system the way most of us do without our hands on the wheel, wouldn't we? So both the company and most of the owners play this sly, cynical game where we wink and nod at each other and use AP without hands on the wheel, just as it was designed to be used and just as the company would say it should be used if we lived in a world without product liability.

I fear the problem is that now that the regulators are involved, the inconsistency in our game will be scrutinized, the meanings of "require" will be forced to be converged, and AP will be made not to function without our hands on the wheel, even though it was never meant to be used that way.

 

[X Yes?]

I fear the problem is that now that the regulators are involved, the inconsistency in our game will be scrutinized, the meanings of "require" will be forced to be converged, and AP will be made not to function without our hands on the wheel, even though it was never meant to be used that way.

That's what CR is advocating. Opinion seems to be mixed as to whether Autopilot would sell with "hands on the wheel at all times " requirement.

 

[3PHASE]

I guess the question would be, in it's current form, could the logs detect "hands on the wheel" at all times, or just when it alerts you every 3 or so minutes? Say you crashed with Autopilot on, but your hands were not on the wheel. Then Tesla could say you were not using the system as intended.

 

[Garlan Garner]

That's what CR is advocating. Opinion seems to be mixed as to whether Autopilot would sell with "hands on the wheel at all times " requirement.

CR isn't a car company. They have no jurisdiction in the game.

I mean come on. I'm tired of all these rules that force adults to be adults. If you don't act like an adult....they shouldn't give you a license. If you take a test and pass - and they give you a license, then you should know how to drive.
If you get a license and you still don't know how to drive, then the test is flawed.

 

[Az_Rael]

I guess the question would be, in it's current form, could the logs detect "hands on the wheel" at all times, or just when it alerts you every 3 or so minutes? Say you crashed with Autopilot on, but your hands were not on the wheel. Then Tesla could say you were not using the system as intended.

Well, according to Tesla, in the Montana crash, they could detect that the hands were not on the wheel even outside of the warnings. And they did exactly what you said in their statement.

 

[X Yes?]

CR isn't a car company. They have no jurisdiction in the game.

I can certainly see why you are frustrated. CR is highly influential with owners and potential owners, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Az_Rael]

After all, if we all really believed the system wasn't designed that way, so it was really much less safe without our hands on the wheel, we would all be pretty stupid to use the system the way most of us do without our hands on the wheel, wouldn't we?

I think it might be more useful to geofence autopilot to limited access roads only (what the system is currently designed for). I'll bet that what we end up with, though is more nags.

 

[ShotgunF15E]

And Tesla agrees...

Model S Autopilot Press Kit | Tesla Motors

Autosteer (Beta)

Autosteer keeps the car in the current lane and engages Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to maintain the car’s speed. Using a variety of measures including steering angle, steering rate and speed to determine the appropriate operation AutoSteer assists the driver on the road, making the driving experience easier.

Tesla requires drivers to remain engaged and aware when Autosteer is enabled. Drivers must keep their hands on the steering wheel.​

So, I suspect, if any action will come, it would be related to this. What percentage of users do you think keep their hands on the wheel at all times? I suspect it is low, especially on long/safe stretches of highway.

On a personal note, I love the feature. I will order it, and I would probably not keep my hands on the wheel at all times.

This shows the difference between the court of public opinion, aka trial by media, and a court of law.

In a court of law, the driver was negligent. The driver was at fault.

In the media, of course it's Tesla's fault because the current car didn't allow the driver to watch a movie (or sleeping) without crashing.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I guess the question would be, in it's current form, could the logs detect "hands on the wheel" at all times, or just when it alerts you every 3 or so minutes? Say you crashed with Autopilot on, but your hands were not on the wheel. Then Tesla could say you were not using the system as intended.

Look People:

If your car crashes. Its your fault.

I don't care what feature you had engaged....Whether it was cruise control, Whether it was automatic headlights, Whether it was anything. It was the drivers fault.

Lets grow up people.
(they didn't tell me to steer my car)
(they didn't tell me I had to stay awake)
(they didn't tell me I had to stay in the front seat)
(they didn't tell me I had to pay attention)
(they didn't tell me.........)

Let me ask a question. If I sold a product and it was simply 2 wires that plug into the wall. If you decide to put the ends of the wire in your mouth and plug it into the wall.....would it be my fault that you killed yourself because: ( let me pause here for a second )..... I didn't write you a "note" to tell you not to?

Geeeeesh. Grow up. If your car crashes. Its your fault.

 

[Garlan Garner]

This shows the difference between the court of public opinion, aka trial by media, and a court of law.

In a court of law, the driver was negligent. The driver was at fault.

In the media, of course it's Tesla's fault because the current car didn't allow the driver to watch a movie (or sleeping) without crashing.

Yes.... I love it. Say it again.

I have come to the conclusion that jails should be for violent offenders of society.

The moon should be for people that need for someone to tell them to steer their cars.